Rebecca Otis Leder: How to build connections for career success

Our interview of Rebecca Otis Leder for “The Creative Influencer” podcast is available today for download on iTunes, Spotify, and premier platforms everywhere. Rebecca is the author of KNOCK – How to Open Doors and Build Career Relationships that Matter.

Knock is a great book regardless of where you are on your career path. It provides a five-step plan to making lasting connections. Knock should be required reading for every influencer that wants to connect with a brand!

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A transcript of the episode follows:

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Jon Pfeiffer:

I am joined today by Rebecca Otis Leder. Welcome to the podcast.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Thank you. Thanks for having me, Jon.

Jon Pfeiffer:

You are the author of, and it's right behind you, Knock: How to Open Doors and Build Career Relationships that Matter. Yes, there you go.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

There it is. And you have one too.

Jon Pfeiffer:

I have one too, yes. And I know the book was not intended to be directed to influencers, but my read of it is that it specifically would help the influencer that wants to reach out to a brand, or a brand that wants to reach out to an influencer. So, it's perfect for my audience. So, we're going to take a deep dive into the Knock Method, but I have to ask you about your origin story for the book. It was, as I understand it, six years in the making.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

That's correct.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Yes, and several years ago, you started to do workshops. Tell me about that.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Yes. So, six years in the making was really from concept where I noticed that communications from media outlets and businesses to, at the time, bloggers like myself or website publishers, or was really what I would call the pre-influencer world. Of course, there were people who were sharing ideas that others wanted to jump on the bandwagon for, but it was really before this sort of huge paid sponsorship influencer movement as a marketing channel. And I was a blogger and people were reaching out to me. I was fortunate to be on media lists. I lived in Austin, Texas, and my blog was about entertaining and all about fun and local businesses. So, I would get the opportunity to interview business owners, restaurant owners, artists, musicians, and really help bring forward the heart of the city, which is still my home away from home. And those media outlets would-

Jon Pfeiffer:

What's the name of the blog? The blog is?

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Oh yes. The blog is called TheRebeccammendations and I rebeccammended all kinds of great ideas, tips, practical, fun ways to explore the city, and it's also my nickname.

Jon Pfeiffer:

[inaudible 00:02:17].

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Yes, thank you. So, I was fortunate there was a blogger network there. I was part of a food blogger community, and I learned a lot from a lot of people about how to cultivate community, how to build my brand, and my community online. And so, as a result, fortunately, I ended up on media lists who were reaching out to me to promote their products and services or their clients' products and services to my audience. And I realized a lot of the outreach messages were very impersonal. In fact, in my book, there's an example. I wanted to put the actual email but my editor said that I had to format it, but regardless, there was an email from someone, it was a chocolate company. I love chocolate. I have a sweet tooth. And they reached out and you could see that they copied and pasted my blog name, and they also mentioned the PR tool that they used to discover my blog, which just told me they're just looking to boost their numbers and to go down a list based on tools, which can be very useful, but they didn't really get a chance to know me or unlock the door.

So, Knock is all about sort of thoughtfully approaching relationships and careers. And I noticed that it was really just this transactional exchange for them and it wasn't adding value for me or for my audience, and it wasn't generating a partnership that was helpful for everyone and mutually beneficial. A few years later, I was in the marketing space working for a small digital marketing and web company, and we were on the outreach side, reaching out to website publishers on behalf of our customers and clients. And there were some practices in the industry at the time, in the search engine optimization or SEO industry where I noticed that this really was lacking in terms of depth and richness of partnerships.

And so, I thought this has gotten lost in the shuffle in business communications and how can we deepen our communications and our partnerships so that there's mutual benefit for everyone, and there's long-term mutual benefit for everyone. It's not just one blog post or one context. It's actually how can you cultivate a partnership with a brand or with a publisher that's long-lasting?

So, that's a little of the origin story. And I immediately jumped to talking to individuals who I saw exemplified building deep career relationships that were of mutual benefit and what they were able to build as a result of that. And one couple in the school builds a school, which is incredible, and others built nonprofit organizations that have global reach and huge impact. So, this really unlocked a lot of discovery for me and social psychology research as well about what makes high-quality connections sticky and how do we unlock them. So, that's the origin story, and I know you asked about workshops.

So, along that journey, about four years in, I really was ready to sort of market test. And I thought, "I think there's something here. I have..." At the time, it was eight steps. Now, the Knock Method is five steps based on feedback, but I wanted to test it out. And I love hosting individuals. I love bringing people together, whether it's around a dinner table, within internal teams within a company, or for educational workshops. And so, I paired two of my interests, which was learning and building connections and also dinner parties. I love a really good dinner party. So, we had 12 people around a really long table in a fun restaurant in Chicago. I put myself out there and I created a flyer and I got headshots done, and all the things. And I was really fortunate, we filled every seat and actually, one romantic couple came out of that and they're still together three years later. It wasn't the intent, but it was about like-minded individuals looking for ways to connect. And that was really the best way for me to get feedback, to test it out, and it validated that there was something here that people were looking for, and I wanted to bring that forward through the book.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And then, of course, every workshop needs a workbook. As I understand it, you had some help making it look pretty, but that was the first, if you will, first draft of the book.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Yes. Yes, actually, today we posted about that. There is this workbook which is about creating change, unlocking new ideas, getting confidence. And this was really the first prototype that was kind of gave me the vision and also the tangible hope that I could have an actual book with actual stories and research, and tell it in a compelling way. I will say, Knock, the book is also designed to be a hands-on book. You can write in it. You should write in it. There are resources in the back that you may refer to over and over again, 50 informational interview questions.

So, say you're able to unlock the door with someone that you're looking to potentially have a partnership with, or really just get to know and figure out ways that you could benefit each other, and okay, great. You booked the meeting now, now what are you going to ask them? What's the agenda? How can you make that the most valuable time for them and for you, not just for you? So, that workbook kind of gave me a little bit of confidence that, okay, I can print out a PowerPoint and staple it together, and then I can have a designer kind of make it look professional. And then, there's a whole lot more work that went into the actual book, Knock, but I think having something tangible to hold was really a confidence boost for me. And it put something in the hands of those who were learning the Knock Method and they still have it on their bookshelf. They still have the notes that they're taking. They can still go back to it over and over again.

Jon Pfeiffer:

So, I want to get into the book and there is a summary of the five steps on page 19, but there's a more in-depth description about each step, and then the exercises and resources associated with each step starting on page 223. So, let's do, this is in the hands of an influencer that's just kind of starting to reach out and get his or her connections and relationships with brands. Step one, and you already know it, but I'm going to read it for the audience. Step one is know my topic and my contact. Take action. What do you mean?

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Yes. So, anytime we're looking to connect with someone, when we have the benefit to prepare, so that excludes spontaneous meetings which many of us are craving right now, but even still, at a conference, at a meeting, we have the benefit of knowing that there is some commonality there and we can capitalize on that and kind of understand what brought someone else to that place. When you have the benefit of preparing, so if you're preparing a pitch, you're preparing hey, I have goals I want to meet with my website this year, I have budget, I have partnerships. Let's say I want to have five brand partnerships this year. In each one, I'm hoping to have each multi-step so multi-faceted, and I would like them to be long-term but something that's mutually beneficial. So, those are your goals.

Well, where are you going to start? So, it can be really daunting. And you might be having a little bit of FOMO and a little bit of sort of comparison game on social media to say, "Oh, so-and-so's really killing it with all of these brand partnerships." Really start with what are your interests. Start with the brands with the companies that you use every day that you're really passionate about or that you want to try, and you think, "You know what? Their values are really aligned with my values." Maybe it's lifestyle and wellness. Maybe it's non-toxic home products. That's one that I'm particularly interested in. Maybe it's travel or food or whatever that may be.

So, start with those things that are meaningful to you. Why? Because when you reach out to them, you're researching their brand. You already know because you're a consumer of those products. You already are kind of living and breathing their brands so it's less of a jump for you to create that partnership. And so, you need to know your audience. You need to know your contact, the organization, the person you're actually going to be meeting with if you can if you know who runs their influencer partnerships or their media partnerships. Look on their website. Check out LinkedIn. See if you can learn about them. Maybe they're on Twitter. Right? So, know who you're going to be speaking with. It's just like a client meeting. You wouldn't walk into a meeting without knowing who your audience is going to be. Otherwise, you're going to sort of be blindsided. So, knowing your contact and your audience does two things. It helps you craft the message so that it is of mutual benefit to yourself and to them. So, you can figure out what makes them tick and sort of tap into that.

Secondly, research serves as a filter. And what that means is let's say you have... Okay, here are my goals. I've got five big partnerships that I like to create this year. I don't know what they're going to look like, but I have the goals that I've set for myself. And if you look at 15, make a list of 15 brands that you're potentially interested in. You know they do partnerships. You're curious about it. Well, you're going to start doing research and you might look into it and say, "Actually, I'm not really loving the way that they structure their partnerships," or "That doesn't really work for my audience.", So it filters out those that may not be a fit, that are not going to be worth your time or their time. And therefore, you're distilling all of your effort and energy and their effort and energy into the partnerships that are really going to add value for both of you.

And of course, let's say you have 15 on your list. You come up with nine that looked like they might be feasible, and you end up following the Knock Method, of course, reaching out to all nine and maybe three come out of it. Then you're two away from your goal. But the research is really an important part because you'll learn more about what they want and what they need, and how it's going to help your audience or not. And therefore, you are creating value, cultivating value for both of you, and distilling it into those partnerships that are going to be more fruitful.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And the first part of your answer is always the advice I give to influencers that want to grow their following. Stick with stuff you like.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Yeah.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Because there's so much out there. If you go to something you don't like, you're not going to be good at it.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Right.

Jon Pfeiffer:

So, okay. So, that's step one. We've done our research. Step two, and this is a hard one. Not about me. Take action. What do you mean not about me?

Rebecca Otis Leder:

In the influencer world, that feels very counter to instinct, potentially. It is exactly what it says. It's not about me. It's, of course, about your audience.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Of course it's about me.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

It's about what you've created, but in terms of partnerships, it's a partnership. It is a brand partnership. Yes, there's a financial exchange, hopefully, or a product exchange or sample. But how can you add value for that brand or that company? And if you're able to paint that picture, then there's a partnership there. So, it is about shifting focus off of yourself and onto the company, the brand, the products, and the benefit's going to be so much greater because you are helping them, but you're helping their network too. So, if you think about the benefit of their network plus your network, it's an exponential impact. So, it is a mind shift. It takes practice. It's the same statement, excuse me. The same goal can be stated two different ways. You might say, "I'm really looking to boost my brand partnerships this year and specifically in the travel and lifestyle category. Can you share more with me about your programs?" So, great. Discovery, there's nothing wrong with that statement.

However, if you've done your research and you can unlock that value and you know other influencers are working with, you know other programs that are really working, and you have tried their product, and you have some excitement about it, then you could say it in a different way, which is, "I'm a huge fan of your product. I've recently just tried your most recently launched XYZ product, and I love it. I've already told my friends and family about it, and I'm planning a blog post about it. I think there's some partnership opportunities here where we can really add value to each other. What do you think?" And it's the same goal. It's the same message, but it's stated two different ways. And one is more other-centered based on what's important to them, and that you've already bought into the product. You're already doing the things that you want to do. Now, you just want to get some credit for it and boost that partnership, or otherwise, you can kind of make it more about yourself and your goals, which is great, but it may not be as long-lasting of a partnership or as deep.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Right. Okay. So, we're now we're halfway there. Step three is own it. Take action. Tell me about step three, the own it part.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Yes, yes, yes. Own it is about your authenticity. It's about your origin story. It's about what makes you tick, about why you created your brand, and bring that to the forefront. Use your humor or talk about your writing style or maybe photography is your thing, and that's what you're known for. So, bring that to the forefront. And the other part of own it is investment. And this one I think is a really critical step in terms of unlocking value, which is what I mentioned before. Try the product. Learn the brand. Be a part of that brand already so then it's less of a sell because you're already excited about it. You're already doing it. It's already part of your lifestyle.

Same with thanks for reading Knock, the book, before this conversation so we could have a more valuable conversation and we wouldn't have to kind of go to the beginning of like, oh, well, tell me the basics. Tell me more about you. You already knew about me so we can dive right into the guts. Same thing with partnerships. So, investment is really critical and it really makes it less of a leap to make that ask, and you'll feel a lot more confident too because you'll know more about the world in which you're trying to sort of be a part of. So, investment, I think is one of the most key steps in this whole process where I've seen a lot of value come out of that. I saw recently someone mentioned on LinkedIn, I use this example a lot. She worked for a nutritious drink company, and she was interviewing individuals, and she'd had all these different interviews, and only three people have tried the product. And it was just a perfect example of how can you even apply for a job and want to contribute if you don't know the brand.

Jon Pfeiffer:

What if you don't like it?

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Yeah. And sometimes it doesn't take that much time for authors that I wanted to reach out to or thought leaders who have a huge following. I would buy their book. I read it. Maybe I read a third of it and then tell them what I'm learning so far. Or in some cases, just download the sample and get a sense of their language and what's important to them. So, it doesn't take a huge amount of effort, but that effort also just differentiates you from other competitors. So, if you've got other influencers knocking on their door and they only have a certain budget allotted, then if you're already living and breathing what it is that they do and you're that passionate about it, it's going to be easy for them to say, "Yes, we want to work with you. We're going to find a way to work with you."

Jon Pfeiffer:

As we're getting ready for the step four, commonality, it occurs to me, this is just a good way to make friends too. Step four is commonality. What do you mean by that?

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Yes, and I will mention that your topic about making friends, there is a quote by a colleague that I really admire, Andy Crestodina, he's in the marketing space, a thought leader. And there's a quote in the book where he says, "It's really a lot like friendships." That's the key to influencer marketing, and so it should feel natural. And so, how can you get there? It's by preparing yourself and understanding their world, and what's important to them. Same with friendships. So, commonality is very straightforward and intuitive, but it's something that we don't necessarily think about. So, it might feel a little bit sort of sciencey and prescriptive, but it really is about bringing the commonality to the forefront. If you're already buy and use their product, that's the thing you have in common. Oh, by the way, also, they're located in your home state or whatever that may be.

So, my magic formula is to use two to three points of commonality and bring that to the forefront when you're reaching out to individuals or look for when you're having discovery conversations, and it makes it less transactional and a lot more familiar so people feel less sold to, and they feel much more like, "Oh yeah, totally. We have so much to talk about because you're from the same place that I'm from. And oh, by the way, we have the same philosophy. The reason I work for this brand is because I also believe in XYZ, and oh, you're a consumer and you love our brand because of XYZ." So, unlocking commonality comes from the research and the investment. And it's a simple way that you can bring some value to the forefront already and make that conversation or that interaction much more personal.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And then we come to the fifth step, which is keep giving. So, we're at the K and this is where I see in so many areas, people fall down because they don't follow up. What's your take on it?

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Yes. When someone makes an introduction for you to a brand, to a business, to a contact, there are three individuals involved, not two. And when the person who is the recipient of that introduction doesn't follow up or doesn't showcase gratitude, it can be sometimes an embarrassment to the person who made the introduction. Hopefully, the person that we're trying to connect them with understands, and it doesn't fall on the introducer's shoulders, but it can be embarrassing. It can sort of play into credibility a little bit. So, if I'm being asked to make an introduction, I really make sure that I've looked at someone's resume or I'm able to speak to what it is that they're after or that they think they can add value which is more of the Knock Method mindset.

It's not really all about getting. It's about giving and contribution. But giving gratitude is a huge step here because everyone needs help to get where they're going. Nobody's gotten their success alone. And so, it's great. We should ask for help. We should ask for favors. We should get feedback. We should have informational interviews. Everybody's gotten somewhere because others have lifted them up. And so, that's what we should do and support each other. And while we're at it, make sure we take the time to express our gratitude. Thank individuals. Even if an opportunity doesn't work out, thank them for their time.

And just know that at the base level, time is very valuable and everyone is rearranging priorities and making decisions about where they spend their time. So, in the way that the Knock Method is to maximize time for those that we're looking to connect with and partner with, same thing goes for gratitude. And so, if people have taken even just one minute to make a quick intro or recommendation, we should thank them for that effort. So, it shouldn't be forgotten. And so, there's the person reaching out, the person looking for partnerships, and then there's also the person on the receiving end. And so, we should think about that double-sided, both sides of a relationship when we're thinking about deepening the quality of the relationships we're making, including with influencers and brand partnerships.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Yeah. You alluded to it, but I do want to highlight the resources at the back of the book. There are sample questions. There are 50 informational interview questions. You're clearly not going to use all of them, but it is a great resource to get people thinking about that. There's the outreach message framework, talking about that canned email you got, here's how to avoid it. So, there's a lot of value. In addition to your approach, there's a ton of value in the resources, and I'd recommend people look at that. But I want to go to page 54 of your book. And this was as if it was written for COVID. You have a section called How Can High Quality Relationships Possibly Emerge If I Work Remotely? So, how can high quality relationships emerge? I mean, I'm in my home office. I'm working remotely. How can we do this remotely?

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Well, I'll ask you. Do you have family or friends that live elsewhere?

Jon Pfeiffer:

I do.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

So, how do you do that with your family and friends remotely?

Jon Pfeiffer:

Telephone.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Telephone, yeah. FaceTime, Zoom, yes.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Yeah.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

That's what we do. We just have to sort of bring it down to the human level and just think about the job context. I've taught a class where students will say, "I never really thought about an HR person or hiring manager as a human." We're so nervous and so focused on are we going to get the job and I need this interview or whatever it is. Same with influencers. Like, "My income is riding on this goal and these partnerships this year." Right? So, we're very focused on that. But the person on the other end is a person, and they also have had a really tough year, and they're also maybe managing smaller budgets because they've had to pivot, right so just acknowledging those things.

I have been working remotely for over six years. And so, I'm proof that it can happen. A lot of the professional partnerships and relationships I have in my current company, I work full time as well, have emerged remotely. And fortunately, I work for a tech company where a lot of people use collaboration tools and virtual forms of communication. But you almost have to try a little bit extra hard to bring that commonality to the forefront. Do your research upfront. The benefit of being remote is that you do have the benefit of research and time, hopefully. Even if you have a quick meeting coming up, take 10 minutes right before. Check out LinkedIn. Check out their Instagram. Check out whatever their channels are, their website, their About Me page, whatever that may be.

It doesn't take a long time to really familiarize yourself. And if it's someone you've met with in the past, by the way, and you're looking to reignite a conversation because maybe a partnership wasn't the right time last year, but maybe now's a good time to follow back up, you can do a quick search then and see what they've been up to, see what the company's been up to, just get a quick gauge on recent updates, and then you can be sort of up to speed.

I did this once with someone that I was fortunate to interview for the book, Adam Lowy, from Move For Hunger. He has an amazing organization. They donate food that would otherwise go to waste when people are moving out of their homes. And they own a moving company. So, they ask moving companies to pick up the food and deliver it to food banks. He's been fantastic. And I was reaching out to him actually to review the interview for the book. And it had been a while. So, I did a quick search on LinkedIn. I know he's really active there. And actually, he was getting ready to be on... Or he was on a LinkedIn Live or YouTube Live or Facebook Live right at that time. So, I jumped on really quick just to hear the end of his talk, and then in my email to him, I commended him on the speech and something that he mentioned that was stood out to me. It was serendipitous, but I was able to be relevant to him, and also I didn't send the email until the call was over because I knew he was busy. So, why would he look at his email right now?

So, I think that the piece that you mentioned, which was about working remotely is just about taking the extra effort to understand their world, to make it not about me, to make it other-centered. And then we have so many tools at our disposals to do that, even if it's a quick Instagram DM. Look at their Stories. Look at their feed. Check out what's been happening and then make reference to that at the start of your message and then go into whatever, like, "I was looking to reconnect with you on XYZ," or "How are things going?" Right? So, it's the same way you would do it in person. If you're going to dinner with someone, think about, "Oh, I know they just went on vacation. I'm going to ask them how their vacation went." Same thing. So, it's really, again, bringing the human side of business back to earth, back to reality.

Jon Pfeiffer:

So, let's talk about the human side of this. You went to University of Texas, but where are you from originally?

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Yes, I'm from El Paso, Texas.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Okay. So, you're a Texas girl.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Yes.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And then you ended up moving. You moved to Chicago from Austin.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Correct.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Did you know anybody in Chicago? How did that come about?

Rebecca Otis Leder:

I did not know very many individuals from Chicago. I have lived in Texas my whole life. I had studied abroad in Spain and I traveled a lot, but I hadn't lived anywhere else. And I had the fortune of securing a job right out of college in Austin. And I love Austin. Like I said, my home away from home. There was sort of this instinct that I got at one point because I hadn't moved away for school or I hadn't moved away for a job. I had been there the whole time and I was craving a new experience. I was craving sort of broaden my wings and try something new, expand my network.

And I ruled out some of the coasts. So, don't take it personally, but LA was very kind of... It's very separated and spread out. And I felt that I wanted to be in a city that was a little more, not necessarily congested, but a city where I could easily walk to meet people, et cetera. And there were other things about the other cities like New York and San Francisco that just didn't appeal to my personality as a resident. And so, Chicago was sort of that middle ground, Midwest feel that still had a lot of career opportunities and a lot of entertainment and culture too. I was in my twenties and I was craving all of that. So, I was very fortunate to follow my gut and I met my husband there as well, and some of my dearest friends, and had some really amazing career experiences.

Jon Pfeiffer:

So, it worked out.

Rebecca Otis Leder:

I followed my instinct and it took me to Denver.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And you are talking to me, right, you're talking to me now from Denver?

Rebecca Otis Leder:

That's correct.

Jon Pfeiffer:

How did you come to move to Denver?

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Yes. So, Denver is a compromise, I will say. My husband's [inaudible 00:31:04] Texas so we get the snow and the sun, and it's also just a very quick trip to both of our families to visit. So, we came out to visit and it just really spoke to us. We ended up connecting with some friends from childhood past experiences and it just sort of felt right for us. So, yes, moving has been a part of my journey, which includes being able to create community in new places, find community in new places, build relationships in new places. So, I think that might be where you're headed here…

Jon Pfeiffer:

Yeah, that's exactly where I'm headed. I've visited Chicago a ton and I lived in Denver for five years. So, I agree with you on both of them. So, what is your advice on somebody that's new to a city on building a network when you get there?

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Start with commonality. Find the things that you like to do. If it's a kickball league in the summer, do it. If it's a restaurant club, do it, or a dinner party club. If it's theater and art, whatever those things are that you are drawn to, you will find like-minded individuals who also have that shared interest. And that's what I've done in all the cities that I... I've joined groups. I've joined clubs. I've joined boards and really just sort of dove right in, and I'd met some of my best friends that way. And I've gone to events pre-COVID, hopefully, very soon we'll be turning that corner, but I've gone to events on my own, and it's forced me to say hello to someone new. But go to those places where you're drawn to anyways, and you're going to find individuals who have that shared interest and you'll never know where one or two people will lead in terms of building community.

Jon Pfeiffer:

So, I have two last questions. One, where can people get more information about the book on the internet? And then the second question is, is where can you buy the book?

Rebecca Otis Leder:

Yes. So, both of the answers to those questions are on my website, theknockmethod.com or knockthebook.com. It goes to the same place and you'll find tons of resources there. We have a monthly call, actually. We have one in April and also May called Knock Neighborhood Nights. It is not your average Zoom. You are asked to come ready to contribute, share ideas, give advice, and also you'll get those things too. And you'll be able to network and expand your network with individuals across industries and levels of experience. And we also have some free resources, like we have these digital badges we just launched so you can put on your email signature, your website, your portfolio, your LinkedIn page, and your website. I might have said that twice. And you can link to the Knock Method community, and it says, "Knock, my door is open." So, it's sort of a built-in way to open the door in conversation starter for that digital networking that we mentioned can be difficult to do. And you can also find details about how to buy Knock on that website, including Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and most recently at the bookstore at University of Texas at Austin where I went to school.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Cool. Thank you.