Phoebe Hines: Dancing to the Top

Our interview of Phoebe Hines for “The Creative Influencer” podcast is available today for download on iTunes, Spotify, and premier platforms everywhere. Phoebe is a TikTok personality known for her dance moves and choreography with almost 1,000,000 followers and 35 million likes! Her online calling card is taking a familiar dance move popular in other videos and adding a sophisticated twist—"adding something to it,” in her own words, “so that, it's not exactly the same, but it's still familiar enough that people know how to do it.” Pheobe shares her thoughts on what makes viral content, TikTok trends and the amount of preparation and time it takes to create a video.

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A transcript of the episode follows:

Jon Pfeiffer:
I'm joined today by Phoebe Hines. Welcome to the podcast.

Phoebe Hines:
Hi, super excited to be here.

Jon Pfeiffer:
You are a TikTok star.

Phoebe Hines:
Yes.

Jon Pfeiffer:
And you are also a Pepperdine student.

Phoebe Hines:
Yes, professor.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Which is full disclosure. You were in my class last semester, in my media law class.

Phoebe Hines:
Which was super fun, I might add, and engaging.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Thank you. Thank you. But we're here to talk about you.

Phoebe Hines:
Okay.

Jon Pfeiffer:
So I did some research just on you before the interview started, and according to tvguidetime.com, a site that I didn't know existed, you're considered as one of the famous forces to be reckoned with. Did you know that?

Phoebe Hines:
Oh my gosh.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yeah.

Phoebe Hines:
I didn't even know about... What did you say that was? tvguidetime.com?

Jon Pfeiffer:
tvguidetime.com.

Phoebe Hines:
tvguidetime.com.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yeah.

Phoebe Hines:
Did not know that they had to say that about me either.

Jon Pfeiffer:
There was also a couple websites that talked about your eyes and your hair in complimentary terms.

Phoebe Hines:
Okay.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yeah, I know. So for those of you who have not yet discovered Phoebe, she is a great dancer, and let's start there. I've read that you trained in the performing arts. Can you tell us about that?

Phoebe Hines:
Yes. I was going to the same studio from probably ages five through... I graduated high school, Culture House Conservatory for the Arts, I guess I'll shout them out. But I trained in all styles, ballet, modern, jazz... A little bit of hip hop when I was younger, but I didn't get to do it when I was older. And then contemporary. We were in a competitive studio, but it was a faith-based environment, and I would not trade that experience for the world because I think it made me the person who I am today.

Jon Pfeiffer:
And you're originally from Kansas City?

Phoebe Hines:
Yes.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Where in Kansas City?

Phoebe Hines:
Olathe, Kansas.

Jon Pfeiffer:
So where in Kansas?

Phoebe Hines:
Olathe. That's where the studio was located.

Jon Pfeiffer:
How far is that from Kansas City?

Phoebe Hines:
Oh boy. Okay. So there's a big metropolitan area, the Kansas City metropolitan area, and then right on the border between Kansas and Missouri is where it's split into two. So Kansas City, Missouri, is probably what you're thinking of. I would say it's probably 20 or 30 minutes away from there, but it's still in that general area that people would still consider the Kansas City area.

Jon Pfeiffer:
So you're a Kansan or a Missouri-ite?

Phoebe Hines:
I am a Kansan, which some would argue is not as interesting, but there is no place like home. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that one.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yes. And your dog is named Toto I'm sure. So how did you pick Malibu and Pepperdine?

Phoebe Hines:
Okay. This is actually a funny story. I knew I wanted to go to school in California. I just love the environment, especially of Los Angeles. I love the diversity. I love just the open spirit. And I also just like the hustle and bustle. I like the city. So I was looking at schools there, if not in literal Los Angeles, I was just kind of looking in SoCal, and a friend of mine had actually reached out to me and she was like, "Oh, look at this school, it's called Pepperdine, it's faith-based. This is a school that I'm looking at." And I was like, "Oh, you know what? Let me look into it." And I figured out that it's one of the top 50 schools in the country, and I knew that my parents would like that it was still faith-based as well as I do too.

           I came on campus for the Malibu reception, I think, and that's when I really made my decision, because I'd been in the process of touring schools and I just didn't really feel at home at any of them. And just being able to go through that experience and to meet people who are actually currently students there, and just be on the beautiful campus. It was just obviously a selling point for me. And I could probably say that a lot of other students are considering the location when they come to Pepperdine.

           But yeah, I think all of those factors kind of played into it, and I really like where I ended up. I've met some of my lifelong friends at Pepperdine. And I think I'll just always be glad to call it my alma mater once I graduate.

Jon Pfeiffer:
And then, I read where you started posting videos in 2019. Were you a freshman in 2019?

Phoebe Hines:
Yes. Oh my gosh. I sometimes forget. And I feel like I was even posting videos when I was still in high school. So the beginning of 2019. But me and my friends, this is like pre-COVID and all, me and my friends made this video of us just making beats on our desks and singing a song. It was popular at the time. I took it down now, because it's actually really embarrassing. But that video blew up a lot and it got probably 150,000 likes, which was a lot. And we were just like, even throughout the day, watching all of the views and the comments and the likes come in, and we were like, "This is crazy." And so ever since that point, I just kept doing it because I was like, "It's fun, it's a creative outlet, it's something to do. Everybody was on there or starting to get on there."

           And then especially when COVID hit, second semester in March and we had to go home, that was really difficult for me I think because... Obviously, California's really far away from Kansas and I was kind of getting away and trying to figure out who I was, and I was just so happy to be in California and be in Malibu. And so coming home was just like, it felt like a step back, which I've had to go through a lot of growth and realize that independence is not location based, it's just a personal growth type of thing.

           But I used TikTok a lot and I was able to be creative with it, and it was just kind of like my hobby for a while. And then my page started growing because people were liking my content and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I can actually do something with this." And so that's how everything started, I would say.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Why did you pick TikTok over the other short form, over YouTube Reels?

Phoebe Hines:
I don't... I feel like YouTube Reels weren't-

Jon Pfeiffer:
No, it was YouTube Shorts. I'm sorry. It's Instagram Reels.

Phoebe Hines:
Oh.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yeah.

Phoebe Hines:
Okay. Yeah. I know Instagram Reels came out after TikTok, for sure. I didn't know that YouTube Shorts was even really that big of a thing at all, and especially because prior to TikTok, I had had a Musical.ly account, so once it transferred over, I was like, "Okay, I'll just keep posting on here and see what this is about." And then once you get into a platform and you get really in tune with how it works, that's kind of like home base for you. I have yet to get into Instagram Reels, I've been trying to do that. And I might even try out YouTube Shorts, but those are I guess more unfamiliar to me compared to TikTok. So that's why I started there.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Do you know your target audience?

Phoebe Hines:
My goodness. I feel like it's got to be some preteens and tweens a lot of the time. People that are significantly younger than me. Middle school, high school, I think is probably the audience that I target. And then hopefully my target audience will grow up with me as I continue to do my content. I think that's super important to think about when you're thinking about your audience.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Or as one of my clients called it, "Aging up."

Phoebe Hines:
Yeah. That's a good term.

Jon Pfeiffer:
So tell me about your creative process. What is your biggest challenge when you're creating, or when you're making content?

Phoebe Hines:
Ooh, I would almost say it's being consistent. I'm a very, I think, spontaneous person when it comes to just like... I've created a couple of dance trends, but they were just very spur of the moment. I was in my bed and I had to get up at 2:00 AM because I had this idea and I just didn't want to let it die. So I think it's probably hopping on that wave and then staying with it.

           And then on top of that, I guess, developing that creative process so that it can grow and change. I feel like it's probably stayed relatively the same, and I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, just because that particular way that I like to create things is not always reliable, I think is how I would put that.

Jon Pfeiffer:
When you're coming up with a new dance move, do you write it down or do you record yourself so you can go back later to see it? How how do you choreograph yourself?

Phoebe Hines:
I would say, I record it. I think the way that I like to choreograph is I start with a very basic piece and piecing the dance moves together. And then I like to work off of the lyrics of the song that I'm dancing to. I like to see how things flow. I like to take something basic and then just make it more upscale. I love taking familiar dance moves on TikTok and just adding something to it so that, it's not exactly the same, but it's still familiar enough that people know how to do it.

Jon Pfeiffer:
What's your favorite video to date?

Phoebe Hines:
My favorite video to date? Ooh. Okay, so I created a dance, I think in July, and it was to an unreleased Doja Cat song, and a lot of people are doing it and the song goes like, "Bow, bow." The sound got taken down though, so I'm so upset about it. It was actually doing really well as a trend. It's actually started to come back, every once in a while a small wave of people will start doing it again. I think that's my favorite video that I've made, and my favorite trend that I've created overall.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Are you able to predict the success of a video? I mean, can you, when you get done, do you have any idea, "Boy, this one's going to be hot," or not so much?

Phoebe Hines:
No, honestly it's so sporadic. I think that's something that people need to keep in mind if they're getting into content creation. Because a lot of times I would say just when I was in the peak of people knowing who I was and what I was doing on the app, if I was proud of something when I posted it, I had a gut feeling. I was like, "I want this one to do well." I was like putting it out into the universe. And a lot of times they would, and then other times, they didn't do as well as I thought. And then sometimes it was like, I think a lot of people have had this problem where they just do a stupid video and they don't put a lot of thought into it, and it's one of the ones that gets recognized the most. So I've had instances like that as well.

Jon Pfeiffer:
I didn't ask it at the top of the interview, but what is your major?

Phoebe Hines:
My major is advertising and I also have a minor in multimedia design. I'm also trying to maybe pursue a double minor and add art onto that. I haven't decided yet.

Jon Pfeiffer:
And how does that track with your dance?

Phoebe Hines:
How does that track with my dance? I think that it's really good, and honestly coincidentally convenient, that I'm an advertising major just because, at some point or another, those things I think intersect just because advertising and social media are very big right now, especially when you combine the two. And just in terms with my dancing, I think it's been easier to navigate what's happening and what's popular and what's successful on TikTok just with the knowledge that I've collected from being in classes and stuff like that.

Jon Pfeiffer:
How often do you try to post?

Phoebe Hines:
I am trying to do better. I'm trying to post at least once a day. And I only say that because sometimes I would post once every two or three days while we were in school, but now that I actually have a little more free time, I'm trying to post once a day. I'm going to get it up to twice a day, three times a day, maybe. I'm trying to be more consistent with posting more, but also in order to do that, I need to be more sporadic with what type of content I post. So that's been an interesting journey.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yeah. Now, I'm going to completely shift gears.

Phoebe Hines:
Okay.

Jon Pfeiffer:
According to today.com, black TikTok users said they don't receive the credit for their work? Have you found that to be true?

Phoebe Hines:
Yes. I actually did an interview at some point, I think early last year, about that topic, because there were actually a group of black creators, black dance creators, that were boycotting making dances, which... I found it difficult to take a full stance on that just because of the way that I wanted to utilize TikTok as a creative outlet and because it had been so therapeutic to me to be able to get on there and express myself through dance. I have had several instances where my trends were not credited back to me, and I kept seeing some of the biggest people on the app do them, and especially when I wanted to address it, because I'm not a confrontational person, especially on the internet, because I don't want people to take it the wrong way, I don't want people's feelings to get hurt.

           A lot of times I was like, "Okay, I'd rather have to go through this than someone else have to deal with it. And it wasn't even just dance trends. I had a couple of comedy skit type of videos that I made too, that people were copying and not tagging the source or anything like that, which was me. And it was just really discouraging, especially to see those videos do better than the original because people thought that they were the original person who did it.

           So yeah, I completely understand that. And it's something that I think a lot of minority creators have gone through, not even just black creators, but just minority creators in general.

Jon Pfeiffer:
So again, shifting gears.

Phoebe Hines:
Okay.

Jon Pfeiffer:
How do you consume content? How many hours a day are you on social media?

Phoebe Hines:
Probably too many. Which, part of it I like to tell myself that it's research purposes because I'm always scrolling through my feed. I'm looking at My4u page. So I'm like, hopefully I'm seeing some dances that are up and coming, or I'm seeing some new types of content that I can explore. I've been trying to get into lifestyle content on top of choreography and dance content just so I can diversify myself.

           But I would say I'm on TikTok a lot, just looking at the people that I'm following and looking through My4u page, just seeing what's hot at the moment. And then I get on Instagram too, because I think that platform is a little more personal to me in terms of who I follow, because a lot of people that I've known over the course of my life. So I kind of get on there to catch up with them. And then once I get into Instagram Reels, I'll probably start scrolling through those as well and seeing what's on there.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Do you draw the most inspiration from other TikTok creators? Where do you draw the inspiration?

Phoebe Hines:
I think it's a little bit of both. I think that a lot of TikTok creators have creative ideas. I think because I've gone through so many instances where credit was an issue, I try to... First of all, I try and credit them, even if whatever video that I decide to make inspired by them, I'm going to give them that credit just because I know how that feels, and I don't want to be a hypocrite. But I think on top of that, I still like to put my own spin on everything that I do. So there's just some degree of originality to it.

           It also depends. It depends on what I do. I think I got probably a little lazy for a little bit, because I used to make these videos where I would take dance trends at the time and I would do it myself and I would make the dance kind of interactive. I could be dancing with another person, but I was just dancing next to myself. I think those were pretty creative.

           And then once I was in school, I was just doing the dances the way that the people had made them. And so I'm trying to get away from that again and just be able to... I don't know how to put this. I'll just say this again, put my spin on things.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Right.

Phoebe Hines:
Yeah.

Jon Pfeiffer:
So on a scale of one to 10, 10 being it really, really matters, and one is, it doesn't matter at all, how are you about comments?

Phoebe Hines:
Comments? I like comments. I'm going to say an eight. I love receiving comments. I need to get better at responding to them, working on that right now. But if a video has a lot of likes and very few comments, and they're not just like to the point where the creator has filtered them or anything like that, I'm just kind of like, "Why aren't people wanting to engage with this?"

           When people leave a comment and they actually put their 2 cents, depending on whether it's positive or negative, because everybody wants to put their 2 cents on something. Everybody has an opinion and a lot of people want to share it. I like getting the feedback. So I would say an eight.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Do you self judge your work? Are you self-critical?

Phoebe Hines:
Very.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Are you?

Phoebe Hines:
Very self-critical. I'm a perfectionist. I want everything to be the best. If something doesn't look right in my brain, I will do the whole thing over again. I watch my videos probably an unhealthy amount of times in a row before I decide to post them, just to make sure that I like the way it looks and I'm not going to be mad once I upload it. And then somebody sees it. So, yeah.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Do you have brothers and sisters?

Phoebe Hines:
I have one older brother.

Jon Pfeiffer:
What has his reaction been to your videos?

Phoebe Hines:
I think he's proud of me. We have a 12 year age difference. So we're kind of from two different spots in life.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yeah.

Phoebe Hines:
So I think he likes that I'm doing my thing. He's doing some of his own stuff too, so I'm proud of him for that. And I think we just respect and uplift each other through our endeavors, and that's been really helpful and good, having that accountability and that support from him.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yeah. What are some of the misconceptions about creating TikTok videos?

Phoebe Hines:
That it's easy. I think once you do it enough and you know what you need to do to be successful, which honestly that changes with time, because even now I can kind of sense that TikTok is not as big of a dance app as it used to be. Part of the reason why I got into dance creation on the app in the first place is because I was looking at Charli D'Amelio and Addison Ray and the biggest people on the app at the time, and I was like, "What are these people doing? They're dancing." And so I was just doing the TikTok dances like everyone else.

           And then that's actually when, after a certain period of time, I was making funny dances that were just kind of stupid. I didn't think anybody was really going to recreate them, but I was like, "If you like my video, then that's fine." And one of those trends was the one that got pretty much stolen from me, and people were commenting... Speaking of comments I didn't like, people were commenting on it and saying like, "Oh, you don't deserve credit for this trend. It's not difficult enough." And that's why I started making the dances that I made because they kind of lit a fire under me. I was like, "Oh well, if this isn't difficult enough for you, then let me do something different."

Jon Pfeiffer:
In preparation for this interview, I watched a bunch of the dances... They're difficult enough, I'll just say that.

Phoebe Hines:
Yeah.

Jon Pfeiffer:
They're difficult enough.

Phoebe Hines:
I was like, "If you want choreography, I will give you choreography, but don't complain when you can't do it."

Jon Pfeiffer:
So I'm going to just step away from the TikTok and ask just a few questions about you.

Phoebe Hines:
Okay.

Jon Pfeiffer:
What is your guilty pleasure?

Phoebe Hines:
Oh, I love French fries. I probably eat French fries every day, which is really bad. And it does not matter where they come from. I will get them from Chick-fil-A, from Cane's... We have something around here called Slim Chickens. I don't think they have that in California. I just love potatoes.

Jon Pfeiffer:
What is your biggest pet peeve?

Phoebe Hines:
Oh my goodness. I haven't been asked this question in a really long time. I feel like... I don't even know if this is a pet peeve or if this is a hyper fixation of mine, but after certain periods of time, I can just hear the noise when people open their mouths to talk. Like when they have to part their lips. Have you ever been in a scenario where somebody tells you, or a big group of people, to smile at the same time, and it makes that weird noise and it's all happening at once? So sometimes I hear that when people speak, and it makes me really uncomfortable.

Jon Pfeiffer:
When you say smile, it means the plastic is breaking.

Phoebe Hines:
I mean, more or less. I feel like that's what it sounds like. I can't listen to that noise.

Jon Pfeiffer:
What's one talent you wish you had?

Phoebe Hines:
Ooh. There's so many. Okay, I'll say two. I wish I was better at sports overall. My hand eye coordination is really bad from even when I played sports. I think the second thing would be, I would've liked being a rhythmic gymnast, in theory. That would've been a cool thing to do.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yeah. You would not be able to tell just from your videos that you were not athletic, because you look athletic.

Phoebe Hines:
I get told that a lot. And in reality, I'm probably a little more out of shape than I'd like to admit.

Jon Pfeiffer:
So kind of wrapping it up. What are you working on now? What's your project now?

Phoebe Hines:
Right now? I would say my followers really want me to create another dance. So I'm trying to figure out a way to do that, where I'm proud of what I make, and also they're proud and wanting to do it. So where it's a win-win situation. I think I'm also working on diversifying my content, keeping dance as a major staple of it but also doing other things so that people can see another side of me, and then trying to get some content over to Instagram and just being able to move my followers and give them a bigger story of who I am. I think that's what I'm working on right now.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Any secret projects you want to disclose on the podcast?

Phoebe Hines:
Secret projects? What secret projects?

Jon Pfeiffer:
You never know?

Phoebe Hines:
Yeah.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Last question. Where can people find you on the internet?

Phoebe Hines:
Okay. People can find me on Instagram. They can find me on TikTok. My Instagram is @phoebe_ryonne, Phoebe underscore Ryonne. R-Y-O-N-N-E is how you spell that. TikTok, it's @oh.its.phoebe. If you look hard enough on YouTube, you can probably find a bad three minute makeup video that I made a couple of years ago, but I wouldn't go looking for that. I do want to get onto YouTube more, so maybe that's in the foreseeable future.

Jon Pfeiffer:
And then you have a website.

Phoebe Hines:
I also have a website. Thank you for reminding me, www.phoebehines.com. That is my website.

Jon Pfeiffer:
So thank you. I will come back to you in a second.

Phoebe Hines:
Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me.

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