Molly Tracy: VRAI Digital

Our interview of Molly Tracy for “The Creative Influencer” podcast is available today for download on iTunes, Spotify, and premier platforms everywhere.

Molly is the founder and CEO of VRAI Digital, an agency focused on uplifting and amplifying female voices so they can share their truths.

Molly has over a decade of experience in influencer marketing and has built a boutique roster of creators who are known for their strong points of view and ability to drive conversions. In this episode, we'll dive into Molly's journey, her approach to spotting and managing talent, and her insights on the evolving landscape of influencer marketing.

Molly shared the following takeaways:

1. “I picked it because I knew that when we started the agency that we were going to focus on female creators, and I wanted to be an agency where women felt like they had a place to speak their truths.”
2. “I think what really drew me to the industry was the fact that it was an industry founded by females for females.”
3. “I think it's really important that you understand your business. I think there's a lot of resources that you have access to as a small creator.”
4. “I think if you're starting to see, okay, I'm getting a little bit of growth and I've had a couple of people outreach to me. I really need a manager. You don't need a manager. You need to learn how to manage yourself and your business first before bringing somebody in to do that for you.”
5. “To me, I'm like, it's hard when you are a boutique talent agency owner and you feel like every minute that you have, I could make a reel, or I could send out three or four pitches for my clients. And so what takes presidents and what takes priority over that, and it's always going to be pitching and bringing in revenue for the business.”

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A transcript of the episode follows:

Jon Pfeiffer:
I am joined today by Molly Tracy. Welcome to the podcast.

Molly Tracy:
Hi. Thanks so much for having me.

Jon Pfeiffer:
You are the founder and CEO of Vrai Digital.

Molly Tracy:
Yes.

Jon Pfeiffer:
And I looked it up, and Vrai, assuming I'm even pronouncing it right-

Molly Tracy:
You are, surprisingly. That doesn't always happen.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Okay. Cool. Is French for truth. How did you pick that name?

Molly Tracy:
I picked it because I knew that when we started the agency that we were going to focus on female creators, and I wanted to be an agency where women felt like they had a place to speak their truths. So for me, I think Vrai just felt really fitting.

Jon Pfeiffer:
And on your website, there's a line that it says, "Our mission is rooted in uplifting and amplifying female voices so they can share their truths."

Molly Tracy:
Yes.

Jon Pfeiffer:
How do you do that? Tell me about that.

Molly Tracy:
Yeah. I mean, I've been in influencer marketing for about a dozen years now, and I think what really drew me to the industry was the fact that it was an industry founded by females for females. At the time, it was all female creators. It was fashion and beauty bloggers. Men hadn't really kind dip their toe into the space yet. And I thought, how neat that we've created an industry where women get to talk about things that matter to other women, and women are creating careers for themselves and making serious good money and supporting their families. And for me, I loved the idea that we had something that we had created for ourselves. And so when I thought about the agency, I knew I wanted to focus on female creators. I knew I wanted to give them a place to be able to amplify issues that they cared about. So it really was rooted in the fact that, gosh, how neat that this is an industry that we've created by ourselves and was spearheaded by women.

Jon Pfeiffer:
It is so interesting you say that because I hadn't really thought of it in that perspective, but for years and years, all of my clients were women.

Molly Tracy:
Yeah. I think it's nice to ground ourselves in that a lot. I joke that I'm like, oh, it's so nice that we let you play in the sandbox with us, because really this industry wouldn't exist without women. We really are the ones that pushed this to the forefront.

Jon Pfeiffer:
And as a guy, I say thank you.

Molly Tracy:
Thank you.

Jon Pfeiffer:
So tell me your origin story. How did you get started?

Molly Tracy:
Yeah. I got started in social media. I graduated college in 2011, so really, truly pre-Instagram. I was working for an agency in Chicago. It was a very-

Jon Pfeiffer:
Okay. Let me stop you. Graduated from where?

Molly Tracy:
Oh. Central Michigan University, which is about two hours-

Jon Pfeiffer:
But you're an Ohio States fan, right?

Molly Tracy:
Of course. Yeah, right. Sacrilege. I hope my dad's not listening. But I was working for an agency in Chicago that was very traditionally earned PR and they brought me in to run social media because really their PR clients are like, "What's this Facebook thing? Should we be on it? What's Twitter?" I always laugh. I'm like pre-Instagram Stories, pre-TikTok, prehistoric. That is how I describe myself in this industry. And the segment into influencer marketing was really seamless for me. Bloggers were starting to pop up on the scene. Our PR team was treating them like editors at the time, but they were growing platforms on social media like Instagram. Having that background and understanding what is a good engagement rate, how could we spot fake followers, that was just things that I knew that we were going to need to take into account when building out influencer programs that our PR team just didn't have the knowledge on because that wasn't the world that they were living. So I expanded the influencer marketing division at that agency, fell in love with it, and then expanded the talent management division at that agency and woke up one day and realized I built an entire business for somebody else. And I was like, well, that doesn't really make any sense.

So I left and I did my own thing and I opened up Vrai five years ago now.

Jon Pfeiffer:
I had a similar story in the sense of I was the only person at my law firm doing entertainment work, and I thought, "Why am I doing this for them?" So how do you spot talent?

Molly Tracy:
We've been very fortunate that about 95% of our business is referral-based. We started with a really small roster at the agency. I started with four creators. They all happen to be friends, so that was really great. And it's just been friend recommendations from there, which is lovely because it's really nice to have somebody else vouch for somebody when you're looking to bring in new business. We have a really small roster. We're a boutique agency, so we have 12 creators and so a lot of it is vibe check. Just like, do you fit the bill? Can you work within the existing roster of creators that we have? Can you all get along? I think that's really part of what we're looking for and so referrals is wonderful, but we do a little bit of new biz dev and we obviously have really specific criteria that we look for in new creators. Honestly, I-

Jon Pfeiffer:
Which is? I can't let that line pass. Which is what?

Molly Tracy:
Okay. Okay. I would say as an agency, we've kind of become known as 90% of the campaigns that we work on are conversion-focused campaigns. So the main KPI of the campaigns that we're working on is sales and conversion. Because most of our roster are ... I will call them old school bloggers. So women that have been doing this for a decade plus, have built their businesses on affiliate work because brand partnerships didn't exist when they first started. They were all making money off of either AdSense on the website or they were working on affiliate. So we really look for creators who A, have a very strong point of view. It's really important to me that you have something that you are known for in whatever space that might be. Whether that's recipes. We're very agnostic in terms of the category that we work within.

We have everyone from motherhood to wellness to a van life creator to a hairstylist. We really do run the gamut there, but everybody has a very strong point of view in the type of creator that they are. So that's really important to us. Being able to convert is very important to us, again, just because the agencies coming to us know us for that type of work. So having a really strong history of affiliate and understanding of affiliate and being able to convert for brands. And then we have nuanced metrics of we want you to have a minimum of 50% of a US demographic because most of the brands that we're working with are D2C and they only ship within the US. But honestly, a lot of it's just a vibe check. I have to really love who I'm working with and my question I always ask myself is, if I wouldn't have you in my house for dinner, so if I would not cook you a meal and sit at my dinner table with you, I probably can't work with you because I work so closely with all of my creators. So yeah, that's kind of like my ... Once we've passed all the metrics and we've done all that and okay, great, she checks all the boxes. I'm like, "Do I vibe with her? Could I really work closely with her?"

Jon Pfeiffer:
No. I mean, I think that's important. I think it's really important. So with your creators, do they work together in collaborations back and forth, or are they 100% independent?

Molly Tracy:
It depends. I mean, there's a lot of them that shout each other out on stories, and so ... This just happened the other day. One of my creators, an audience member asked her if she had a code and she's like, "Oh, actually I don't have a code, but Jess Keys has a code," and linked her code for her. And so that's just a nice way that they can all play together, I think, and really leverage each other and each other's audience for growth. So that happens a lot, which I think is fun. But we've also had people on the roster that have done campaigns together. So last year we had a couple of gals go to Saugatuck, Michigan for a campaign. It was a really fun family getaway. They're all great friends anyway. And so sometimes you do get really lucky where a brand is interested in working with multiple creators on your roster for a cool piece of content.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Now, you had mentioned that one of your creators is a van life creator.

Molly Tracy:
Yeah.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Van lifestyle. And I remember when that was, what, a couple years ago, three years ago? I don't even know when. That was a big thing.

Molly Tracy:
I think it was over COVID. Everyone was kind of like, I need to ... Well, A, it was a great way to be able to see the United States. It was a way that you could still social distance yourself. You were in nature, which is great, which is expansive, so you weren't necessarily near anybody. I think a lot of people were kind of like, "Gosh, we've been cooped up at home for too long and we'd love to be able to explore, and this is maybe a safe way to do that."

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yeah. So how did COVID affect ... I mean, obviously from the lockdown phase there was the uncertainty about what's going to happen, but once it started to ease, do you still see any impact of COVID?

Molly Tracy:
I mean in positive and negative ways, I think. In a positive, I think that we would be remiss to not say that it was a massive tragedy on a large scale, but I think in the sense of influencer marketing, our industry had probably never been busier at that time. Everybody was online. Everybody was buying things to sort of fill the void in a lot of ways. And brands had their hands tied. They weren't able to do any production shoots, they weren't able to do any in-house marketing or anything like that, so they were really leaning heavily on creators to sell product, to do UGC content for them, to produce content for their channels. So I think the industry saw a huge boom and a big spike during that time. And I think I would say something that we're still evening out on is this conversation of conversion.

At that time, it was so easy to 2X a campaign because again, everybody was buying. Everybody was looking to shop online. I think that that's really kind of evened out a little bit. You see a lot of conversations, especially on TikTok, around consumerism and how we got to this place of just mass consumerism. And I feel like we're really trying to even that out a little bit. And so it is difficult to 2X campaigns now. Most are looking for a breakeven point, which is great, gives you a little bit more flexibility. But I think there's still a lot of brands, especially in the D2C space, who were just seeing crazy, crazy growth during COVID that are now kind of having to reevaluate goals and reevaluate how they're spending budget, which of course affects how we work with them too.

Jon Pfeiffer:
And I'm going to jump around a little bit, but are you able to predict whether a particular influencer will be big?

Molly Tracy:
I mean, I don't know that anybody can really predict it. I think there's definitely creators out there though that you know who has a secret sauce. There's definitely some creators that you can look at and see, wow, their community is hyper engaged. They're eating up everything that they're putting out there. The comments are incredibly thoughtful and aren't just like, "Love this dress." It really is like you can see a great connection and also that the creator is interacting with their community. I heard this interesting thought around cold creators and warm creators and cold creators being somebody who just puts content out there and doesn't necessarily really interact with their audience. Doesn't respond to comments, doesn't respond to DMs. And then you have warm creators. I think Alex Earle is obviously a great example of this. She's somebody who's always in the comments and always engaging with her audience and so I think that's a great signal of somebody who could potentially make it big because you're clearly nothing without your audience. But then also just somebody like, do you see that they're able to capitalize on trends? Are they nimble? Are they putting out a consistent amount of content? Are you hearing from them often or are they just posting once a week and popping in and out? I think there's always people that you can see a bit of a secret sauce with.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yeah. I had not heard it put cold creator versus warm creator, but I like that.

Molly Tracy:
Yeah. I thought it was interesting.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yeah. So on your website, you ... It's you.

Molly Tracy:
It's me.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yeah. You say that you help creators navigate the business side of the multimedia landscape. What do you do for them on the business side? I mean, obviously there's the creative side, but what about the business side?

Molly Tracy:
Yeah. My goal when I bring on creators is I really want to alleviate every business admin/forward thinking idea for you so all you have to focus on is content creation and community engagement. Because truly, that is the only thing that you should be focusing on as a creator, especially if you're looking for growth. So that's everything from minute tasks of reviewing contracts and staying on top of emails and making sure that the execution of the campaign is moving forward and doing bookkeeping and invoicing to also macro level things of do we want to launch a podcast? What does that look like? Are we going to be launching product? Can we help source vendors for that? What's the business plan to launch said product and the marketing plan around that? Because it's really interesting the difference between marketing a product versus marketing your product. And I think a lot of creators, there could be some tension there that they need help putting some thoughts on paper for that. I think especially when you look at branding as a whole, a lot of creators have never done a branding exercise, which is funny because they themselves are brands.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Branding themselves. Yeah.

Molly Tracy:
Yeah. But they've never really put that on paper before. So yeah, it's everything from minute tasks to really where do you want to take your business and where do you want to be in five years? And if this is what we want to do, then what are the steps that we need to take to make that happen?

Jon Pfeiffer:
You said where do you want to be in five years. Have you experienced that there is a certain shelf life to an influencer that you have to rebrand yourself every so often?

Molly Tracy:
I haven't seen it with my own roster. I mean, because we've worked with women that have been doing this for a decade plus, I think this is something I'm really passionate about. There is longevity in this space. I think a lot of people are kind of like, "Well, is this fleeting? And is everyone just kind of getting their 15 minutes of fame?" And I think there is a way to sustain yourself in this industry. I think a lot of that does come down to community and authenticity, which eye roll, I know we all use that word, but it really is, I think, all that you have as a creator. And I think the minute that you step over the lines of authenticity and whether that's talking about a topic that you don't maybe resonate with or taking on a brand partnership that your audience is kind of like, "This feels like a money grab," you lose that.

But I do think that there's something to be said about how do you take people on a journey with you over a decade plus? And a lot of it, the way that I've seen my creators do it is that most of their community is at the same life stage as they are and so when my creator is buying a house, they're in the stage of buying a house. My creator is getting married, they're getting married along with them. And my creator is getting pregnant, they're all having babies. And so it really is, I think, letting people into the journey and being open and honest about what's happening in your life, because a lot of people are experiencing it at the same time with you. You just have to take them along.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Yeah. I've had it described as like podcasts. Especially a podcast where there are a team of people where you're listening in on people that you view as friends because you've heard them. And you're going along with them, and certainly YouTube's the same. Tiktok's the same, not as much as YouTube. But you're checking in on somebody that you have like interests.

Molly Tracy:
Yes. Well, and I think a lot of this goes back to ... It was really interesting. I hosted a panel when I was at the Influencer Marketing Show earlier this year, and we were talking about this idea of longevity in the space, and one of the panelists had mentioned that he doesn't think it's possible to have longevity without being on some sort of long format content pillar, which I thought was so fascinating. And I don't know that I wholly disagree with him. I think being able to ... Whether that's blog, whether that's long form YouTube, whether that's newsletter or Substack, I think it's easier to have longevity in that space versus short form content because you get so much more realness from these people because me watching a 10 minute long YouTube video creates a different connection to you as a creator than me consuming a 15 or 20 second TikTok, I think. And same thing for blogs. Me reading in depth long format word content from you is very different than consuming an Instagram reel. So I was curious and interested around that take of maybe long form is the section between longevity or not.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Let's assume it is just for the sake of argument. How much do you have to supplement with that little spice of the short form?

Molly Tracy:
Oh, I think you definitely need bite-sized content. You do. I mean, you'd be remiss to ignore the fact that our attention spans are so low these days. And so I think you do need to supplement with short-term content, of course. And I think there's something to be said about bite-sized pieces that can still bring across your personality or the value that you add or convey your content pillars in short form content. But I think to be able to build true connection, I think ... I don't know. I think the way to do that might be long form content.

Jon Pfeiffer:
So transitioning a little bit, but if somebody is starting to grow a following, and I know it's different on TikTok because the algorithms versus YouTube versus Instagram, but they're starting to grow a following, what advice would you have for a creator to continue to grow?

Molly Tracy:
I don't know that any of this is revolutionary. I feel like this is things that people know, but it honestly is what works and I think that's maybe why we all regurgitate it. I think consistency is key. People want to see you show up every day, and that's going to look different on platforms. On Instagram that's going to be six to eight story frames a day, one in-feed post, whether that's a reel or a carousel, whatever suits your fancy. TikTok could be multiple posts a day. YouTube, I think daily is way too tough, but shorts exist, so there's a way to do that. I think consistency is key. I think, again, a really strong point of view. I think serialized content is so interesting and something that creators have started to really lean into and I think you're starting to see creators that are coming to the surface with interesting series that they're doing.

I love series for so many reasons. I love it for the creator because it keeps their calendar consistent. They know exactly what they're going to be posting, and it takes a guessing game out of that a little bit. I love it as a consumer because I know what to expect from you as a creator. I am now coming back to your channel to see what else you're doing in the series. And I love it as a brand because I think it's a safe bet when you look at sponsoring one of those series. You have so much historical data to see how that series performs in terms of engagement from their audience. You have really strong metrics to know, does this series typically have strong reach, strong engagement? Does it typically convert? Yeah. I think serialized content is a win-win for every piece of the puzzle.

Jon Pfeiffer:
And it's interesting that you say that because everybody's looking for that new secret.

Molly Tracy:
I know.

Jon Pfeiffer:
The reality is it hasn't changed that much.

Molly Tracy:
No.

Jon Pfeiffer:
But I think everybody needs to hear it. You were talking about a creative calendar. How much do you help your creators plan out their next month, six months, year, on what kind of content to create?

Molly Tracy:
I mean, we definitely, I would say, we're not social strategists. We do have some creators that outsource that to other social strategists to help build out a calendar. What we do is I really work with them on how they can incorporate trends, how they can incorporate trending sounds into their content. I consume a lot of content. I will be the first to admit I'm on TikTok more than I should admit. But I always just say, I'm like, it's for research. It's fine. It's for my job. My excuse.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Of course, of course.

Molly Tracy:
Obviously. But I think in order to create great content, you need to consume content. You need to know what's trending. You need to know how people are putting together videos. You need to know how are people cutting and editing their videos for brevity or for growth or for trend management. So we work with them a lot on that. I will find trending audio and send it to my client and say, "Hey, I think you could do a take on this. Hey, this would fit for your content. Here's the angle that you could do that." And it just really depends on if we have specific goals.

If we have a client that's like, "Hey, I really want to get more into beauty content," but she's more of a lifestyle creator, we then will work with her on the types of content that that might need to look like. So what's the niche within beauty? How can we start rolling that out so it doesn't feel like a really stark shift? If you've been doing home decor content for the last two years, and all of a sudden you're-

Jon Pfeiffer:
Now you're going to work on your cheeks.

Molly Tracy:
Exactly. All of a sudden you want to start doing beauty tutorials, we've got to pepper that in so it doesn't feel like a stark left turn. So we look at it more as from a holistic strategy versus this is the type of content that you should be posting, here's the hook that you should be using. That's not really our gig. We look at it as a holistic 360 strategy.

Jon Pfeiffer:
So you were talking about consuming content and mentioned TikTok. How do you consume your content? What platforms do you spend your time on?

Molly Tracy:
I am a TikTok fiend. I will admit that. I am a lurker. I do not post. I have never posted. Just a lurker.

Jon Pfeiffer:
A lurker. Okay.

Molly Tracy:
I stay on the for you page. I think that my algorithm is amazing and I love it. It surprises me all the time and it brings me lots of great joy. And I prefer that raw content versus on Instagram, I never scroll through my feed ever. I never look at my discover page ever, or my explore page. I just think that Instagram Reels, I find them to be a little boring. I don't know why. I just think TikTok, to me, feels like much more raw, real, engaging, funny. But I do scroll through stories a lot. I watch stories all the time. And it really just depends. On Instagram, you can watch without sound. On TikTok, you can't. So a lot of this is just situational. If I'm on public trans or something, I'm watching stories. If I'm at home on the couch, I'm in TikTok. I just got into Substack, which I'm recently really obsessed with too. I think it's such a great way for bloggers who love long-form content and love the written word to explore a newsletter. Yeah. So I don't know. I try to spread it around a little bit. The only thing I don't really watch is YouTube. Unless it's specific series. I love Tiny Desk from NPR. Those things are really fun. But yeah, I'm not much of a YouTube gal.

Jon Pfeiffer:
No. It's kind of funny with YouTube, if you find a channel you really like, it's a time suck.

Molly Tracy:
Yep. Oh, yeah. And it is because they're all like 15 minute videos. So I'm like, oh, you watch three or four and you're an hour in.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Oh, I know. I don't even know how I started. There's this guy that sits with rescue dogs until the dog responds and it's like they're all 15, 20 minute videos and it's like, oh, why did I even start this?

Molly Tracy:
I won't even ask you to send that to me because I will be sucked in.

Jon Pfeiffer:
It's like, oh man. So how does somebody know it's time to get a manager?

Molly Tracy:
This is my favorite topic. I think every manager has different ideas of this. A lot of it comes down to ... I have so many opinions about this. I think that there's this narrative around the idea that managers create influencers, and once you get a manager, your income is going to 10X and you're going to make it and you just have to sit back. And I really think that ... Gosh. Where do I even start on this. First my thing is the math has to math always when you're looking at management. If you are conservatively growing your business 10% year over year, which is great growth for any brand, are you in a place financially where you can take 20% of that for your manager off the top and still pay your bills? If you are not, then it is not time for management yet.

I think it's also really important to know your business intrinsically before you bring people in to manage your business. So I think as a small creator, you should learn how to do your own bookkeeping. You should understand how to pitch yourself. You should understand how to read a P&L sheet. You should understand how to potentially outsource. To me, I guess when I was starting my business, I did it by myself for the first two and a half years because I really wanted to have an understanding that when I brought in a bookkeeper, I could ask the right questions to her. When she sent me a P&L sheet, I could read that P&L sheet and ask the right questions. I just think we creators get to a place where they're like, "Oh, I don't know anything about this and I feel like I need to outsource this and bring somebody else into management."

And I think it's really important that you understand your business. I think there's a lot of resources that you have access to as a small creator. If you have questions on your rates, you could hire a consultant, a talent manager like myself. I do this. You can pay me an hourly fee to look over your engagement and your metrics and tell you what you should be charging. Do that and do that maybe on a six month basis if you're continuing to grow versus taking on full-time management. Contracts are really trippy for a lot of smaller creators. Pay a lawyer to go over contract terms with you. Create a contract checklist. That's what I did when I first started. I wrote a checklist with sample language that I would sub into different contracts, and I paid a lawyer to look over that sample language and to go through a couple of contracts with me and go over some red lines and that gave me a strong enough base to go off of.

So I just think it's really important that, and learn your business before you bring on management. You really should be bringing on management when you are pulling your hair out. If you are so busy that you're missing deadlines, you're missing email opportunities, and you feel like your inbox is a disaster and that you're not well as a human because of how much you're working, that's a great time to bring on management. But I think if you're starting to see, okay, I'm getting a little bit of growth and I've had a couple of people outreach to me. I really need a manager. You don't need a manager. You need to learn how to manage yourself and your business first before bringing somebody in to do that for you.

Jon Pfeiffer:
So a couple of wind down questions. How do you keep up with the new trends in the industry?

Molly Tracy:
I mean, I'm a network fiend. I'm in a couple of different networking groups. I'm in a group called Women and Influencer Marketing, which is women and influencer marketing. It's pretty self explanatory. But it's fabulous. I've been in that group for a couple of years. I think I joined maybe just before COVID. I think I joined just after I launched Vrai. It's a Slack channel and it's from people from all sides of the industry. So it's agency folks, it's brand side folks, and then it's also talent managers. And so that's just a great way for us to have strong discourse around what's happening in the industry, trends that we're seeing, how budgets are shifting. And it's all women, which is fantastic. Again, I love that camaraderie of this industry being mostly female focused. There's some really, really amazing newsletters out there. Leah Haberman's newsletter is fantastic.

Lindsay Gamble's is great. They do a lot of really awesome roundups around just platform updates and things that I constantly share with my clients so we can think about integrating those into social strategies. And I love LinkedIn. I'm a LinkedIn girl. I'm constantly scrolling LinkedIn and I like consuming other people's opinions. I love seeing people that have been in the industry for a decade, chat with people that have been here for maybe two years. Because I think there's just interesting discourse there. There's some people that are younger and Gen Z that have a really interesting take on influencers and take on social media and the culture around social media versus dinosaurs like myself who've been here for a really long time.

Jon Pfeiffer:
I take umbrage at the dinosaur comment. Last question. How can people find you on the internet?

Molly Tracy:
Well, I'm on LinkedIn, like I said, but you can slide into our DMs. We're just @VraiDigital on Insta and Threads-ish. I feel like when Threads first came about, I was like, this is it. I'm going to go all in. And admittedly, our own social media presence is just something that always takes a hit in terms of priority. To me, I'm like, it's hard when you are a boutique talent agency owner and you feel like every minute that you have, I could make a reel, or I could send out three or four pitches for my clients. And so what takes presidents and what takes priority over that, and it's always going to be pitching and bringing in revenue for the business. But Insta, we're there. You could find us.

Jon Pfeiffer:
Thank you.

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