Kamla Pande: Moondust Management

Our interview of Kamla Pande for “The Creative Influencer” podcast is available today for download on iTunes, Spotify, and premier platforms everywhere. Kamla is the founder of Moondust Management, a full-service talent management company for digital-first entrepreneurs and personalities.

Kamla shares some of her clients’ secrets to success, her very interesting journey helping influencers grow their businesses, and thoughts about were things will go in the future.

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A transcript of the episode follows:

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Jon Pfeiffer:

I'm joined today by Kamla Pande. Welcome to the podcast.

Kamla Pande:

Thank you. Happy to be here.

Jon Pfeiffer:

You are the founder of Moondust Management.

Kamla Pande:

That's right.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And I went on the website and it says that Moondust is a, bear with me, because it's a long two sentences, I want to get it in [laughter]: Moondust is a full service talent management company dedicated to driving career growth and sustaining longevity for digital-first entrepreneurs and personalities. And then there's some more of what you do and it ends with Moondust helps talent make business out of their passion. Tell me about that.

Kamla Pande:

Yeah. So the approach that I took with Moondust is I think a little bit different than the typical management approach in that I am focused on really growing these long-term businesses for talent. So something that can sustain itself beyond just a single paid Instagram or YouTube post. Really turning into a business, the passion that they had when they first started whatever channel they started. So, a lot of these creators first gained a following because they were doing something they love doing just sheerly because they love doing it. Particularly with a lot of the types of creators who've been in the space for a long time. There really wasn't a career trajectory for them in the way that there is now.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Are there more videos?

Kamla Pande:

Yeah, exactly. Eight years ago, there wasn't a kid saying, "Oh, I want to be a YouTuber when I grow up," because it just hadn't hit in that way. So because of that, people were really doing this because it was something that they were truly passionate about. And my goal with my clients is to harness that passion and then try to turn it into a sustainable ongoing business, just like any of these other startup companies. So the way that we look at it is not as an individual personality doing everything from content creation to distribution to the whole gamut of what you think an influencer does, but rather to be the founder, so the creative genius behind it. But then put actual people in place to help run that as a business entity. So developing brand extensions, really figuring out how to develop passive revenue streams. So, going beyond just chasing the next deal.

Jon Pfeiffer:

I have to throw in that you, and we'll go through your background in a second, you did go to the London School of Economics.

Kamla Pande:

I did.

Jon Pfeiffer:

This all makes perfect economic sense. So, let me back you up and let's look at what you do from a 50,000 foot view. What does a talent manager do in the digital space?

Kamla Pande:

So, it's probably a better question, what don't I do? I think the true definition is a little bit murky. I think in the way that it's very clear what a manager does for a music artist. I think for a digital-first talent, so a content creator, it's a little bit more difficult to understand what those boundaries are, because in many ways, I do everything from being a plus-one travel companion.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Not so much lately.

Kamla Pande:

Yeah. Right. Exactly. Not in the last six months. Although the last trip that I did go on before all of this was with one of my clients. But, yeah, so everything from being involved in their personal lives, so helping to make sure that their finances are in order so that they can buy a house. So connecting them with those people. Do they need a business manager? So identifying who else they need to surround themselves with. So that's a big aspect of what I do. And then a lot of it is also figuring out, not tomorrow, but a year from now. So how do we develop some kind of calendar? So whether that's content creation, setting goals in terms of financial. So, we want to hit X amount of revenue before the end of the year. So, it's personal, it's financial, it is strategic in the actual business side of it, and then a lot of it's creative too. So helping to brainstorm content ideas, collaborations with other creators. And, then I think there's also that therapist angle that you, that job that you are-

Jon Pfeiffer:

You're manager/counselor.

Kamla Pande:

Yeah. It's often that way.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Yeah. I want to pick up on a couple of the things you said. So how do you keep track all of that? Do you whiteboard it out or how do you even brainstorm it the first time?

Kamla Pande:

So for each of my clients, it's a little bit different. Some of them have a little bit more of a sophisticated, let's call it, infrastructure around their businesses. So some of them employ assistance. One even has a creative director, people who actually help create the content for them. And then for others, that's just them. So, I think the clients of mine who have a bigger team, my role is a little bit more COO. So going in and out and making sure everything's running smoothly, and then I can go and, with those clients, seek out other opportunities. It's a little bit less worrying about how the day-to-day is running. I think for my clients who are kind of those individuals, yeah, it's a lot more mapping out what the plan is. And then holding them accountable after a certain period of time saying, "Hey, we set these goals. Let's see where we are at for them." But yeah, it's a lot of juggling. I mean, in any given day, I speak to six to seven of my clients who all have completely different areas of expertise, different needs, just different dynamics, different ways of doing things. So, it's a lot of taking off one hat and putting on the other. But it's fun.

Jon Pfeiffer:

It's fast-paced. How do you keep track? Do you use software to keep track? This kind of like "in the weeds" kind of question.

Kamla Pande:

I probably should. So far, I've been pretty successful in doing it with pretty basic resources. So, just using the very general Google suite of shared documents. It's a lot of ongoing, shared trackers of the Excel documents and trying to update things in real time so that my clients have full visibility into every conversation that I'm having on their behalf. For almost all of them, we have a touch base every week, but in those in-between times, if they just need a quick reference, they can go and see a shared online.

Jon Pfeiffer:

It's 2:00 AM and I just wonder what I'm supposed to be doing.

Kamla Pande:

Exactly. That's exactly right. Although, it's usually a text first.

Jon Pfeiffer:

"Hello? Are you asleep?"

Jon Pfeiffer:

You had talked earlier about or mentioned in passing about children now or teenagers want to grow up to be YouTube stars. So let me first ask you how you feel about the concept of influence and then second, how you feel about the concept of people want you to grow up to do that.

Kamla Pande:

Yeah. I mean the concept of influence isn't new. It's just the people who are doing the influence and the platforms through which they're doing it have changed. So, in the same way that when I was growing up, I was influenced by the magazines that I read. So, what shampoo to use or very mundane influential things. It's now done through a more interactive platform. So, I think it's not necessarily a new concept. I do think that one of the great things is that the content... So, influence has now been democratized. So, in the way that there were gatekeepers before, so not everybody was in the magazine, not everybody was on TV or in the movies. There was a certain look that was privileged. And a lot of that has gone by the wayside and because the gatekeepers really like that don't exist anymore so there is the access to these platforms.

And, again, I mean, a lot of being found or discovered is pure luck, but we've seen this rise of communities around niche categories that weren't necessarily ever shown before. And, I think, in that way, it's one of the reasons I really proud to be a part of this industry because I think the first VidCon I ever went to, I was just astonished at the diversity of the kids who were there. Because I think the quote unquote influencers who get the bad rap are the ones who all look the same. They're indistinguishable from one another, but they're not the only ones out there. There are these niche communities with millions of people engaged on a daily basis and they're kids who wouldn't necessarily have an outlet prior. And they also wouldn't have had, I think, this venue to be able to share their experiences and see somebody with severe acne, for example, to make them feel like they weren't alone.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And who would have thought that would be a thing?

Kamla Pande:

Right. So, I do think that the concept of influence for good, so to use that platform that you have built to draw attention to something that you're really passionate about or is important to you, or is important to the world is fantastic. I think the idea of, "I want to influence because I like to take pictures of myself and I love lipstick." Maybe isn't quite the angle that really pulls at my heart strings.

Jon Pfeiffer:

That's a polite way of putting it.

Kamla Pande:

But, I do think that the bigger point is that there is something for nearly everybody. You just have to find it and seek it out.

Jon Pfeiffer:

So, how do you spot talent with the millions of people that are on YouTube? How do you spot talent?

Kamla Pande:

Yeah. It's tough. For everybody who makes it, there are thousands of people who are equally as talented, who just don't. I think one of the most important things to me is, outside of creativity of course, because I think when you watch somebody's videos, you get a really good feel for... They came up with everything. They have to be the ones to develop the concept, to actually film it. So, beyond the creativity, which I think is just a baseline requirement, it's just how much fun they look like they're having. Do they look like they really want to be doing this, or does it feel like a job? And I think those who approach it as, "This is a job, this is what I do." They're bound to burnout. And I think their audiences will burn out as well.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Part of YouTube is such an escape, in many instances. Other than the vast knowledge you can get, but just an escape to live with somebody else. If they're not having fun, there's plenty of bad TV I can watch.

Kamla Pande:

That's right. That's exactly right. So, I think that just from a sheer talent standpoint is something that I look for is, "Is there a real passion there?" I think once you start to have a conversation with a lot of the creators, for me, it is critical that they're hard workers. There are a lot of things that are just given to people with a big following, but those who understand that they still have to keep working hard and earn it, that's kind of level of humility, hardworking, but then there's that "it factor" That is the difference between somebody who has exponential growth and somebody who just plateaus, but so much of that is just engagement with their audience. So, do people seem to really like them or are people following them for some other reason, because there is a shocking amount of hate following that goes on in this space.

Jon Pfeiffer:

I know.

Kamla Pande:

Which blows my mind, but it's a thing. And, so I think understanding the dynamic between the creator and their audience is also really important to understanding whether or not they'll grow.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Yeah. I mean, I'll talk to my clients about how comments will affect them. It's astounding to me because I have... Well, one, I very rarely leave comments, but I've never left a negative comment. What's the point?

Kamla Pande:

Yeah. I don't know.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Yeah, I know. I know, but...

Jon Pfeiffer:

Okay. Back when bars were open, I heard a bartender-

Kamla Pande:

I remember those days.

Jon Pfeiffer:

I remember them too. Making a joke about a woman who came into the bar and she's sitting there, and she told the bartender she had six children and right now she didn't like any of them.

Do you ever have moments like that?

Kamla Pande:

I knew that was coming.

Jon Pfeiffer:

With your clients.

Kamla Pande:

I've had the luxury from building this business from the ground up of being able to pick my clients. I think obviously a lot of it is referral basis but I've been really lucky in that I don't work with anybody I don't like. It's a career philosophy. We rarely get to do that in our careers. And, I truly enjoy, as people, everybody I work with.

Jon Pfeiffer:

You don't have to... I won't tell anybody.

Kamla Pande:

I mean, yeah, of course they're always moments where I'm like, "Oh, no."

Jon Pfeiffer:

Who's your favorite?

Kamla Pande:

They're all my favorites. Yeah, no, I mean, there are definitely moments where I feel my phone buzz and I'm just like, "Not sure I want to look at it right now."

Jon Pfeiffer:

I have days like that too. So what advice would you have for someone who wants to do what you do?

Kamla Pande:

Yeah. It's funny because this job really didn't exist a few years ago and I totally honestly fell into it. But I think patience is a very, very important quality in this business.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Potentially to fail.

Kamla Pande:

I think, I think patience and adaptability. I think understanding that, we kind of touched on this before, but there's no job description. So there's really nothing that's beneath you, but the sky is really the limit. Your clients will be as successful as you work hard for them. So you're success is intrinsically tied together. And once you understand that, I think you have a better understanding of how you can be helpful to your clients. So, I think understanding why certain people have been successful in converting their influence into business is a key baseline.

I don't have a background in entertainment. I don't come from the world of talent and my education was in communication. And I do think that that was a benefit for me in this because of the way that I approach what I do. While my clients are people who I enjoy, they're not... I can look at their business objectively and say, "This is the right decision for you. Even if you maybe don't like it right now." And I think one of the dangerous things that often happens in this business, and it's not just for digital talent, in many cases, this happens, I think, on the music side in traditional as well, is that managers get too close to their clients in that they're clouded and they just can't give them the strong sound advice because they don't want to hurt their feelings.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Right. Shifting gears, how has COVID-19 affected your business?

Kamla Pande:

Well, my biggest client is a travel blogger. So, right off the bat, it was a pretty big blow to our businesses. I think, it was the first thing that we did was figure out, "How do we pivot? Where do we go from here?" But it was a real test of the loyalty of her audience and their motivations. And I think the same goes pretty much for everybody. Are they there because of you or are they there because of your beautiful travel photos? And, thankfully the pivot has been quite successful for us. And, we haven't seen too much of a drop. And this goes across the board, but for the first few months it was like, "Okay, we're in this for a month, we can all just survive. We'll be fine."

Jon Pfeiffer:

If I hear one more person say, "We're all in this together."

Kamla Pande:

Right. Exactly.

But I do actually think that the fact that this did impact everybody's standpoint, although obviously there are some whose businesses soared, Jeff Bezos, but I think because of the widespread impact, it was easier for a lot of my clients to understand and say, "Okay, this isn't me. This doesn't affect just my business. Everybody's feeling it." And so it kind of put some of the panic at bay because as much as it was my job to figure out how do we make up those lost sources of income across the board, it was also the reminder that everything's going to be okay. Making rash financial decisions during that period of time, probably not the best thing to do. Wait it out a little bit. So, just basic advice like that, but yeah, no, I mean, I've had to lower my projections for the year quite a bit. Thankfully, things are picking back up.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Just in the last month, they've picked up big time.

Kamla Pande:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think deal flow didn't drop too much, but average deal size did. So the amount that was being spent was quite a bit less. Obviously the travel industry, I mean, it dried up completely. There was really nothing there. And I think there's a lot of projections that the travel space will not recover until 2022. And, at this rate, I'd be surprised if it was even that. I think we'll probably be set back about 10 years even by 2022. But, I think, if anything, we looked at it as an opportunity to start getting stronger in other categories.

Jon Pfeiffer:

So, I want to go from COVID-19 or something more fun. I did some research about your background. And, I found that you're a huge Ohio state fan.

Kamla Pande:

Oh, boo.

Jon Pfeiffer:

You are a Michigan fan.

Kamla Pande:

I am a Wolverine through and through. Yeah.

Jon Pfeiffer:

For those who are not in on the football rivalry, Michigan and Ohio state tend to hate each other. So, where are you from originally?

Kamla Pande:

I'm from Ann Arbor.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Okay. And then Ann Arbor is where Michigan is located.

Kamla Pande:

That's right. Yeah. I've been going to Michigan football games since I was four years old. Obviously, not this year.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Well the Big Ten is talking about doing them after Thanksgiving.

Kamla Pande:

That's what I've heard, but we'll see. My feeling is that even the SEC will have scrapped the whole season by then anyway. Obviously football is a big passion of mine having grown up in a place where the stadium is bigger than the population of the town.

Jon Pfeiffer:

I went to Nebraska undergrad. So the stadium is bigger than the population of all but two of the towns in the state.

Kamla Pande:

That's exactly right. Football's big business and to actually bring it back to influence, I think one of the really interesting developments that we're going to continue to see is the rise of the student athlete as influencer. And it's really posing a lot of challenges to the NCAA with their inability to pay college athletes, but a lot of these kids have huge followings and-

Jon Pfeiffer:

There is a bill that passed in California, that the athletes can have rights to their name, image and likeness.

Kamla Pande:

Yeah. Which is, in my opinion, a long time overdue.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Oh yeah. I mean, if you can monetize it as Olivia Jade out of a US dorm room, why can't the Heisman Trophy winner monetize it?

Kamla Pande:

Yeah. I mean, I was walking around wearing number four, Chris Webber, basketball jerseys when I was a kid. It just didn't say Webber on the back. Everybody knew and Chris Webber made no money off of it. So, I think it's-

Jon Pfeiffer:

But, that's going to change. That's going to change.

Kamla Pande:

Yes, yes, yes. I think that's true.

Jon Pfeiffer:

So, you left Michigan and went to work at CVS.

Kamla Pande:

Yes. So, my first job out of school, actually my first job that I accepted out of school was as a financial advisor, and I sat for all the exams and then I quit before I started. Because I was like, "What am I doing? This is not for me." So, anyway, of course, with an apartment in Chicago where my lease was about to start, I was like, "I've got to find a job." So I went the advertising route. I really didn't know anything about this space. My undergraduate degree in University of Michigan's research school, and so it was a very much a theory-based communications education. So, I knew a ton about Habermas, but not anything about CPMs. So, I just, on a whim, applied for this job, went in for an interview, and was really met with an amazing group of people who I'm still really close with and had a real crash course in digital advertising. And, it was a great experience. That was obviously the early days of digital video. Pre-roll videos were very new, but, yeah, that was my first foray into the digital space.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And then you've worked at some of the big names in the industry. You were at Maker Studios for a while.

Kamla Pande:

Yep. Yep.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Pre-Disney.

Kamla Pande:

Pre-Disney. Yeah. Well actually I was there through the acquisition and left probably about six months afterwards.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And then Style Hall.

Kamla Pande:

Yeah. That was also during the acquisition.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And then onto, and I had not heard of it, but I looked them up, YMU Group.

Kamla Pande:

Yeah, YMU was previously named James Grant Management and it's a UK-based company. They're now the largest management company in the world through a series of acquisitions. But initially started in the US representing soccer players. So, there were a few of us who came over from Style Hall to open their LA office with management of social influencers. And that was my first foray into management directly. I'd always been on the sales side of the business prior.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And when did the idea, when was it conceived of starting your own company?

Kamla Pande:

I always, I mean from day one, I wanted to start my own company. I think from a little kid, the only thing I knew was that I didn't want to work for somebody else. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I just knew I wanted to be my own boss. And I don't know if that's problems with authority, but throughout my career, I never really knew what "it" was. I didn't know what I would do outside of... I could consult. I could freelance, but to me that felt too loose. And, I was just floating around some conversations, couple of months before I left, but, that's actually not true. It's probably six or seven months before I actually decided to go, with a good friend and then eventually one of the clients who ended up leaving with me, but I said, "I think I can do this on my own. I have a different way that I want to approach this."

And at the time I wasn't actually even a manager, my job was to broker brand deals between our clients and the partners they ended up working with. So I worked across all of our clients rather than focusing on a couple of them. But, through that, I developed really close relationships with a few and I think being on the outside of it, not being so much in the day-to-day of the management, that allowed me to say, like, "I just don't think this is it. I think there's another way to do this, and I'd like to do it differently. So, let's try it." And here we are.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And there you are.

I am going to pivot again and we are going to go 73 questions a la Vogue. Difference is, I've not given you the questions in advance, so you don't have a pat answer.

Kamla Pande:

I have no idea.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Okay. What question do you ask to find out the most about a person?

Kamla Pande:

It's not a good sign that I'm stumped on the first one, is it?

Jon Pfeiffer:

No, it's the hardest one, frankly. I have a lot of... I just, I ask this of all the guests, and I have a lot of people, "Pass."

Kamla Pande:

You didn't go to Ohio state, did you? No, I'm just kidding.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Who is your biggest inspiration?

Kamla Pande:

My parents. I know it sounds so cheesy, but they've really done an amazing job with working their way up. And I mean, immigrant life is not an easy one in this country.

Jon Pfeiffer:

When it's safe to go out and COVID-19 has been kicked, what are the first two things you've missed and want to do?

Kamla Pande:

I would like to go to Mexico and lie on a beach. That's been top of mind for quite some time. And, again, this is going to sound so cheesy, but I want to hug my mom. My mom has an autoimmune disease. And so I haven't been able to actually touch her in six months, and I'm not even a hugger. So, that's a big deal.

Jon Pfeiffer:

What TV channel doesn't exist, but should? The Michigan football channel probably.

Kamla Pande:

Well, I like to call that the Big Ten Network.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Well, I guess it really does exist.

Kamla Pande:

Yeah, I mean, there's thousands of channels. Honestly, I don't watch that much TV.

Jon Pfeiffer:

What's your favorite movie?

Kamla Pande:

Dirty dancing.

Jon Pfeiffer:

What's your guilty pleasure?

Kamla Pande:

My guilty pleasure, I mean, I have three dogs, so I guess being a dog mom.

Jon Pfeiffer:

What kind?

Kamla Pande:

I have two chihuahuas and a Jack Russell. They're all rescues. So all some version of a mutt.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Yeah, we rescued a golden retriever and a half ago and did a DNA test on him. He has 39% golden retriever.

Kamla Pande:

No.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And 20% super mutt, which means it's so muddled, they couldn't even tell what it was.

Kamla Pande:

Those are the best though.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Yeah. What piece of entertainment do you wish you could forget you experienced, so you could experience it again for the first time?

Kamla Pande:

Something so good. I have seen rent on Broadway nine times, and while it hasn't gotten old, I think I would like to see that experience. The first time I saw it, I was quite young, and I'd like to see it again for the first time at this age.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Tell me something.... And, I will not ask how old you are. Tell me something that's true that almost nobody agrees with you.

Kamla Pande:

Nobody agrees with me?

Jon Pfeiffer:

But it's true.

Kamla Pande:

Yes. No, no. I know a lot of things to be true that people would probably dispute. If college football was played, Michigan would win a national championship this year.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And the laughter is not a comment. How do you consume content? What's your favorite platform?

Kamla Pande:

I ended up consuming most of my content on mobile, but I love to read. I'm a big Kindle user.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Favorite book?

Kamla Pande:

Ooh, that's a hard one. I have read a lot of late. My favorite recent book, I loved Where The Crawdads Sing. I think that was fantastic.

Jon Pfeiffer:

I'm going to shift hats again now, or shift topics. It's prediction time. It's time for you to get out your crystal ball. Will Microsoft by TikToK?

Kamla Pande:

I'm going to say no.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Will TikTok exist if they don't?

Kamla Pande:

Yes.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Will Instagram Reels take off?

Kamla Pande:

No.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Have you tried to use it? It's so hard.

Kamla Pande:

I find it very confusing, but I also find TikTok confusing.

Jon Pfeiffer:

If faculty changed the algorithm on Snapchat.

Kamla Pande:

Right.

Jon Pfeiffer:

I was looking through some of the questions that we've already touched on. I didn't want to do it again. What's the next big thing?

Kamla Pande:

Quibi. No, I'm just kidding. Just kidding. I think the answer to this is different now, than it was six months ago. And not because COVID's going to change everything, but I think you're going to see a return to in real life. I think people are going to crave real life experiences. So I think platforms that have some element of meetup or social side to it, I think that's going to take off.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And, I have one last question for you sure.

Kamla Pande:

Sure.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Where can people find you on the internet?

Kamla Pande:

That's funny. I'm actually, I mean, I guess I'm find-able but I try to keep a low rate, low profile.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Give your company's webpage.

Kamla Pande:

Yes. So, moondustmgmt.com and we also are on Instagram @Moondust_MGMT.

Jon Pfeiffer:

And thank you. I'm going to stop recording. I'll be right back to you.