Beto O’Rourke: Promoting Positive Political Change

Our interview of Beto O’Rourke for “The Creative Influencer” podcast is available today for download on iTunes, Spotify, and premier platforms everywhere. Beto represented Texas's 16th congressional district in the United States House of Representatives from 2013 to 2019. Beto came to national political prominence during his 2018 campaign for U.S. Senate, which he narrowly lost to Republican incumbent Ted Cruz, but also set a new standard in politics for his grassroots use of social media during his campaign. After seeking the 2020 Democratic nomination for U.S. President, Beto created Powered By People, an organization with the mission to reach eligible Texas voters to register, vote and volunteer.

Beto has been described as understanding how to use social media as an influencer and not as a politician. He shares his thoughts on the positive democratizing effect of social media, how it can be used as for powerful purposes such as facilitating help, assistance and organizing. He also talks about his views on politics in general, as well as his viral live-streamed road trip across the country with Will Hurd.

Beto shared the following takeaways:

On Social Media’s Power

Jon Pfeiffer:

There was a comment I read that you understand, talking you, Beto, understand how to use social media as an influencer and not as a politician. Why is it that you do it differently from some of your colleagues?

Beto O'Rourke:

It's so interesting that we're talking about this right now because, and you may feel the same way, I go through phases where I want nothing to do with social media. It can be so superficial, so toxic, so inimical to a deeper understanding of an issue or a deeper connection that you could make with somebody. It's a platform where the people are the products that drives the profits of these companies who seem to have an incentive to pit us against each other, or to bring out the worst impulses, or to drive the most sensational stories. But then we have a day like we did yesterday. I mentioned Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez raising all this money online for Texas. We, through our group Powered by People, organized thousands of volunteers to make hundreds of thousands of wellness check-in phone calls to senior citizens across Texas to connect them with water or food or these warming centers that they can go to, or transportation for those who are home bound right now. It makes me realize that that's a platform that can do a hell of a lot of good.

Jon, I don't have anybody who does social media for me, so for those who follow me, you'll see me just drop out for, in some cases weeks on end, where I just don't know what I can add to the conversation that's going on, or whether I want to add to it at all. Then you see me, yesterday I'm on that all day because I'm tapping into the power to connect with people who want to do good. That's a great lesson for me, at least, that it's not as simple as saying social media's bad or social media's great. It's really complex, and it can be used for very evil ends, see Donald Trump. It can be used for powerfully positive purposes, as we just saw in the way that people rallied around and for the people of Texas yesterday. My conception of social media is still forming right now, and after yesterday, and again seeing all the good that's coming into Texas today, I'm really grateful that it's out there, and I'm grateful it can facilitate this kind of help and assistance and organizing.

On the Bipartisan Road Trip with Will Hurd

We livestreamed it almost the entire journey, in fact, I think the entire journey. It is in the Guinness Book of World Records as the longest, uninterrupted bipartisan Congressional road trip, and maybe somebody has since broken that record. It was great. What was wonderful was getting to know Will so well. What was just as powerful was connecting with all these people who participated in the livestream, who were asking us questions, who were checking in on us, who told us to go to Gibson's Donuts in Memphis, Tennessee, which is one of the best donuts I've ever tasted. It was really amazing, and again, Jon, that's probably another positive example of social media, and some good that it can be put to. We very often focus on the bad things that are going on there. That is a great memory for me.

On Social Media and Campaign Finance

Jon Pfeiffer:

You raised $80.3 million from 800,000 people during that campaign, no PAC money, average donation $44, and I saw the most unique way to ask for a contribution when you were at a gas station. You were filling up, and the gas pump read $46 and some odd sense, and you said, match my gas money.

Beto O'Rourke:

Absolutely. Do you know what? What's nuts, Jon, is that people would do it. We would livestream. We'd have the camera on the gas pump meter and we would run a contest. If you can guess what it costs to fill up the tank in our Dodge Grand Caravan, then you get a t-shirt, or whatever. Folks would guess, and then when it got to the number, $46.71, we'd ask you to make that contribution.

. . .

We talked about the democratizing effect that social media platforms can have. I think that carries through to campaign finance. You don't have to rely on the very rich or the political action committees or the corporations to fund your campaign if you can reach enough people and give them an easy way to connect with your campaign through a donation of 18 bucks.

On the Future of Social Media in Politics

Jon Pfeiffer:

How do you think politicians will use social media in the future? Where do you think it's evolved?

Beto O'Rourke:

I can tell you what I hope happens. I hope that the free-wheeling, open, "small D" democratic platform that so many have made so much use of in so many positive ways, and we've gone through a number of examples today, I hope that that can be retained. At the same time that these platforms where the people are the product, where the profit is derived so often from the heat that comes from battle or conflict or division, the superficial nature of the information that we consume, I hope there is some thoughtful, effective regulation of that, and an acknowledgement that these are not public utilities. It's not the water company, it's not the electricity company. These are publishers who derive a profit from what they publish, and have set up algorithms and systems to drive the highest level of engagement and response, which very often flows from the things that deeply anger us, or the conspiracies that can be trafficked, that are sensational and I just cannot resist reading this story and then sharing it with my friends, because it's just crazy how this election was stolen or this other thing that happened.

They have a responsibility in terms of their deep and profound impact on the polity in America. The way a newspaper, a news station, a cable outlet, has regulation that reflects that responsibility, I think these social media platforms must have that as well. How you balance that, how you keep that freedom of speech, that ability to organize, the ability to see conflicting and dissenting points of view, which is so important to democracy, and yet not allow the ability for folks to organize sedition or the gunman who drove to El Paso and murdered 23 people here in 2019 to become radicalized on those platforms and share his manifesto. That's the challenge, and that's the art of those who are in power right now to legislate and regulate. Though it's hard, and though it won't be an easy balance to strike, I think it's very necessary if we're going to see more good than harm come from those platforms.

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A transcript of the episode follows:

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Jon Pfeiffer:

I am joined today by Congressman Beto O'Rourke. Welcome to the podcast.

Beto O'Rourke:

Jon, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be with you.

Jon Pfeiffer:

You are a three time Congressman for the 16th Congressional District in Texas. What I'm going to do is I'm going to do a couple of set up questions just so the audience has a full view of where you are, and then I'll start asking you real questions.

Beto O'Rourke:

Okay.

Jon Pfeiffer:

That includes El Paso, your hometown, correct?

Beto O'Rourke:

That's right. That's where I am right now.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Then you famously ran for Senate against Ted Cruz, and we'll ask about that. Then you ran for President of the United States. You grew up in El Paso and then went to Columbia. Why Columbia for college?

Beto O'Rourke:

It's in New York City. That's really where I wanted to be. My Uncle Brooks moved there in the 1970s. I was born in '72. He was this person that I really looked up to and still look up to today. He was leading this really, what seemed to me as a kid, this exciting life in New York City, in a loft in Tribeca, he was in a band making music, he ran a recording studio, and seemed to be at the center of the universe in New York City, at least that's what it looked like to me from El Paso, Texas. I had this opportunity to apply to Columbia. Not sure that I'd be able to get in to a school like that. Somehow I lucked out and was able to do that.

New York, Jon, turned out to be everything that I'd hoped it would be. It really was the center of the energy and the action, and in many ways, actually, it felt like El Paso. As you know, El Paso is this extraordinarily diverse city, rich with immigrants from the world over who've chosen to live in El Paso, and made it so much better by their presence. New York felt a lot like that to me. People from all over the world, all this energy, all these languages being spoken, all this culture and heritage, and for me as someone who's into music, to be able to take the train downtown to go see a show at CBGB's, or any number of other bars or spaces, and bands that I'd only heard because I bought their record or read about, to see them in person was amazing. That's not the best reason for choosing Columbia. That's why I chose Columbia.

One funny story on that. As most people do, I took out student loans, worked a work/study job. My dad took out loans to pay for my education. I remember coming home from college, maybe after my first year, maybe after my second year, I can't remember, and telling my parents that I was going to be an English major. My dad just looked at me and he said, so you've taken out all these loans, you're working these jobs, we took out loans, so that you can read books? Why don't you be an engineer or an accountant or a doctor or a lawyer? Anyhow, it worked out in the end.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Your parents know my parents.

Beto O'Rourke:

Yeah, exactly.

Jon Pfeiffer:

The music component is interesting because it was widely reported you were part of a punk band for a while, did that, and then you co-founded a technology company, which is an interesting precursor of your use of social media. Can you tell me about that and how that acquainted you, and why you were even interested in a technology company?

Beto O'Rourke:

Yeah. Jon, the precursor to that precursor was in the mid 1980s, I think I was in 7th grade, my dad, Christmas one year, bought me an Apple IIe computer, and a 300 baud modem that allowed me to initially connect to a kind of proto AOL service called The Source, where you could go on to not even really chat rooms, but message boards. Then I started to find these bulletin board systems that you could call into. Jon has his computer set up that will receive incoming calls, and I call you with my modem, and I'm logged into your computer, and I can read files, maybe download software onto my computer. I can post messages that would be read by others. It's funny to think about it now, but that system's so antiquated from our perspective. Only one person could log into your computer at a time. If I were on your system and someone else were calling in, they'd get a busy signal. You'd wait until I jumped off, you'd jump in. That world of BBSs or bulletin board systems, that was the first time that I saw the power of connecting with other people across the country through our phone lines and our computers, and being able to share information and ideas and organize action. That was really powerful as an influence on me as a 14 year old, 13 year old kid.

Then mentioned that I moved to New York. I actually worked for my uncle, who I talked about, who had started an internet services provider company in 1995, which Jon, as you know, was the beginning of the wild west of the web and internet. We were selling DSL lines. I'd go install them in your office. We were creating websites for you. We were selling internet accounts and email hosting services, just the whole deal. I learned all that through my uncle and his company. I moved back to El Paso in '98, and ended up starting a business doing much the same kind of work in conjunction with an online publishing company. We published a newspaper, basically a city newspaper that was covering city politics, arts and culture, and also the binational relationship between El Paso and Juarez. I think all of that certainly influenced the way that I use and see social media today.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Then in 2005 you ran for the El Paso city council. I'm not so much interested in the run for the city council, but why politics?

Beto O'Rourke:

One, I think it's an extension of some of what we've been talking about. Connecting with people was at the heart of my fascination with technology and computers and modems, reaching folks that I otherwise would never meet, and learning things I'd never be exposed to. Likewise, publishing that online newspaper in El Paso starting in 1998, when I moved back here, that was all about the direction and course that the city of El Paso was taking, and writing stories to help ourselves and our readers understand that. Also, perhaps to influence that, try to foster a debate about public policy or economic development or the subdivision code in the city. All of that deepened my interest in serving in another capacity in elected office.

Then I also was the son and the son of a man who served in the County Commissioner's Court, which is an elected position in El Paso, and was county judge, which was essentially the chief executive of El Paso county, and was just very involved in Democratic party politics on a state-wide level. There was certainly an influence from my dad and from my folks in that way. That, I think, all combined along with the opportunity that presented itself in 2005 to run for city council, a race that we, against the odds and most people's expectations, won.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Then that led to, in 2012 you ran for Congress. You were elected. You ran two more times, won both of those. You're a three-time Congressman. Now we get into the social media of what is national politics. I've read, and I'd like you to confirm or deny, that both the Democrats and the Republicans have social media training for incoming newly-elected Congressman. Is that true?

Beto O'Rourke:

It's true. I honestly don't know how good it is, and I do not say that to diminish the effort from either Republicans or Democrats who are trying to coach their new members in how to use social media, but my take on this is if you got elected to Congress, especially in the year 2022 or 2020 or in recent election cycles, you probably were able to capitalize on social media as a platform to organize or to get your message out. So I actually think the incoming members perhaps have more to share. We have to look no further than representative Ocasio-Cortez, who's probably one of, if not the most effective people on any social media platform that I've seen in terms of organizing volunteers. She actually just, as we're recording this, she just raised a million dollars yesterday on social media for the people of Texas following this winter storm, the power outages and everyone who lost water. She's amazing. That's somebody that I would take a class from. Yes, I think the political parties obviously see the power in these platforms and are trying to make the most of it.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Well, I would disagree with you in the sense of putting her at the top, because I've seen you compared with her as understanding the platform more than any other person in Congress. There was a comment I read that you understand, talking you, Beto, understand how to use social media as an influencer and not as a politician. Why is it that you do it differently from some of your colleagues?

Beto O'Rourke:

It's so interesting that we're talking about this right now because, and you may feel the same way, I go through phases where I want nothing to do with social media. It can be so superficial, so toxic, so inimical to a deeper understanding of an issue or a deeper connection that you could make with somebody. It's a platform where the people are the products that drives the profits of these companies who seem to have an incentive to pit us against each other, or to bring out the worst impulses, or to drive the most sensational stories. But then we have a day like we did yesterday. I mentioned Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez raising all this money online for Texas. We, through our group Powered by People, organized thousands of volunteers to make hundreds of thousands of wellness check-in phone calls to senior citizens across Texas to connect them with water or food or these warming centers that they can go to, or transportation for those who are home bound right now. It makes me realize that that's a platform that can do a hell of a lot of good.

Jon, I don't have anybody who does social media for me, so for those who follow me, you'll see me just drop out for, in some cases weeks on end, where I just don't know what I can add to the conversation that's going on, or whether I want to add to it at all. Then you see me, yesterday I'm on that all day because I'm tapping into the power to connect with people who want to do good. That's a great lesson for me, at least, that it's not as simple as saying social media's bad or social media's great. It's really complex, and it can be used for very evil ends, see Donald Trump. It can be used for powerfully positive purposes, as we just saw in the way that people rallied around and for the people of Texas yesterday. My conception of social media is still forming right now, and after yesterday, and again seeing all the good that's coming into Texas today, I'm really grateful that it's out there, and I'm grateful it can facilitate this kind of help and assistance and organizing.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Which is a perfect transition to, in 2017, you took a road trip. It's been dubbed the bipartisan road trip with Will Hurd. How did that come about?

Beto O'Rourke:

It's so interesting. Will, who I knew but didn't know well, we were elected in different classes. I was elected first in 2012. I think he was elected in 2016. We'd say hello to each other on the floor of the House, maybe had some superficial conversations. I was in San Antonio, which was part of his district, as a member of the Veterans' Affairs Committee, visiting a VA hospital and some veterans' clinics, and then actually meeting with this extraordinary veterans' support group, a group of Vietnam era veterans who were working in group therapy to address long-standing issues resulting from their service to country, post traumatic stress disorder and some of the effects lingering still from traumatic brain injury, for example. Will was there with me, and even though he wasn't on the Veterans' Affairs Committee, he wanted to be in those meetings. I just really became so impressed by him and just genuinely liked him and the fact that he took his job so seriously.

Anyhow, we're taking the elevator down in the VA hospital, and both of us get these text messages from our teams back in DC saying that our flights had been canceled because there was this surprise snowstorm in March of 2017 that had grounded all air traffic, and we weren't going to be able to get back to the Capitol in time to vote that week. I turned to Will, and I said, hey, do you want to drive back there with me? Kind of as a joke, and maybe somewhat seriously, but thinking there's no way he's going to take me up on it. He did. He said, do you know what? Let's do it. We both left in our own cars, and then I called him, or he called me, I can't remember. He might remember. We checked in on each other to see if we were serious, and we were. So we started working on it, and rented literally the last available car in the rental car center in San Antonio, because it was spring break. They'd all been checked out.

It was a Chevy Impala. I don't know what vintage, but it was the last one on the lot for a reason. We drove that thing across the country with just a very brief stop in Tennessee, from San Antonio to DC, and we livestreamed it almost the entire journey, in fact, I think the entire journey. It is in the Guinness Book of World Records as the longest, uninterrupted bipartisan Congressional road trip, and maybe somebody has since broken that record. It was great. What was wonderful was getting to know Will so well. What was just as powerful was connecting with all these people who participated in the livestream, who were asking us questions, who were checking in on us, who told us to go to Gibson's Donuts in Memphis, Tennessee, which is one of the best donuts I've ever tasted. It was really amazing, and again, Jon, that's probably another positive example of social media, and some good that it can be put to. We very often focus on the bad things that are going on there. That is a great memory for me.

Jon Pfeiffer:

We'll come a little bit more deeper about it later, but how is it that you can have donuts on the road,—I've watched you campaign,—and eat what you eat, and be as thin as you are?

Beto O'Rourke:

I don't know. For sure, in the Senate campaign, I mean you'd be just disgusted at the diet that we maintained in the Senate campaign. It was donuts. We had this awful game that we played called donut roulette, where everyone in the campaign van had to eat whatever donuts were selected for them by whoever was it that day. The person who was it would go into the donut shop and they'd pick some awful peanut butter and jelly with marshmallow donut for Beto. If I didn't eat that donut within a minute, then I lost that round. Eating donuts, eating Whataburger, eating whatever fried food we could get our hands on, because you just are so desperate for the calories and the energy to fuel that next town hall or that next rally. I don't know. It probably did some lasting damage to my heart and my system, and I'm trying to eat healthier now that I'm able to be in El Paso full time.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Which, again, that's a perfect transition to your Senate run against Ted Cruz. That was in 2018. Like no other politician that I'm aware of, you took everyone on a look in your day to day life. You embraced livestream. Why did you pick livestream?

Beto O'Rourke:

We made a virtue of a necessity. I don't know what my name ID, in other words, I don't know how many Texans knew who I was in early 2017 when we started the Senate run, but it couldn't have been 5%, probably lower than that. Didn't have any money. We had chosen not to accept political action committee or PAC contributions from anyone, corporations, unions, nobody. We were just going to accept, for the most part, low dollar donations from individual human beings. Being a Democrat in a state that last elected a Democrat to the Senate in 1988, from almost anyone's perspective, this was a losing proposition. So who's going to get behind this guy Beto from El Paso? We just thought we'd put it out there. We thought, look, very low cost to entry to be on these platforms. All you need is a cellphone with a connection and an account. Let's just broadcast, and let's broadcast all day. We'll broadcast at the town hall meeting, we'll broadcast at the rally, but we'll also broadcast at the barbershop, at the donut shop, at the barbecue joint, and bring people in. You get to look behind the curtain and see how these campaigns run, day in, day out. And it turned out to be, for some people at least, really kind of a fascinating window into our politics. For me, again, I really enjoyed getting to meet all these folks who became the regulars on our livestream.

Jon Pfeiffer:

I saw where you showed yourself cutting steak, eating guacamole while driving, going to the dentist. It was truly a curtain into Beto O'Rourke.

Beto O'Rourke:

Probably too much.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Well, but part of it I read where you visited, there are 254 counties in Texas, and you visited each and every country, most of them appearing at town halls. Your first ad was called Showing Up. It was filmed on an iPhone and was created entirely with livestream footage from your travels to the 254 counties. Who came up with that idea, which is brilliant?

Beto O'Rourke:

You know, I think I did. I didn't do the work, by the way. I want to give the credit to the folks who edited all that footage. Imagine going through hundreds or thousands of hours of Facebook livestream footage to find the 30 seconds that's going to comprise that ad. I thought, look, you mentioned the fact that I was in a punk rock band before. Let's embrace that ethos of the stripped down, bare bones, no fluff and no fat. This is just the raw, real thing. We're not going to have Hollywood production, we're not going to go into a studio and film me. We're not going to have an American flag and an eagle soaring overhead. This is just the raw, live, out on the road candidate. I loved that. I don't know that we did anything even close to that good when we did have the budget to hire someone to film us and do the direct to camera appeals and all that jazz. That was really something that I was happy to be a part of.

Jon Pfeiffer:

We'll come to it in a second, but there was a documentary done by HBO about the campaign. I saw that you were asked tons of questions at the town hall meetings. You had alluded to the punk rock band. They'd say, how does being in a punk rock band qualify you to be a senator? Okay, well, fine. But then they ask the question about kneeling during the national anthem at the NFL football game, and your response went viral. What did you say and how did that happen?

Beto O'Rourke:

We were at a town hall that was ostensibly about public education. I came very prepared to talk about education, and many of the questions focused on that. Then this young man stood up and asked me kind of a leading question about Colin Kaepernick and other conscientious civil rights heroes who were willing to put their careers on the line in order to fight for the full civil and human rights of our fellow Americans, and asked the question in such a way that would leave me to say, that's awful and he's dishonoring the flag and he's dishonoring our veterans and our service members. Instead, I just told him what was on my mind and how I really felt, and that Colin Kaepernick and others, I feel, are in a very long, proud tradition from Rosa Parks to Muhammad Ali to John Lewis. There's so many who were literally willing to risk, in some cases their lives, for the full rights of everyone, not just themselves and not just those who look like them, but all Americans. It's something I'm deeply proud of, that that happens in our country.

I'll tell you, Jon, after I said that and after the town hall was over, I think there were a lot of people who, for the best of intentions in my campaign, who were unhappy that that happened, and unhappy that it was caught on the livestream, and who probably, frankly, would rather that it be buried than be released because again, for the best of intentions. Beto, it looks like you really have a shot of maybe winning this thing. This is a deeply unpopular position to take, and we don't want to be talking about kneeling in protest and the NFL. We want to be talking about healthcare and this or that and the other. But then some enterprising follower of ours saw the livestream on social media, on Facebook, captured it, edited it, put it out there herself, didn't ask for permission, because she probably wouldn't have gotten it from the campaign, and that set it off.

That, to me, was reflective of the de-centralized "small D" democratic nature of our campaign. Everyone was in charge of that campaign, whether you were on the payroll or a volunteer, if I ever met you or knew your name or not, you were part of that campaign and you took it upon yourself to do what you thought was in keeping with the spirit of that campaign. Releasing that video was definitely in keeping with the spirit of the campaign. I'm so glad they did that. That's how that happened, and again, to the point of your question, really, this interview, and the work that you do, another example of the powerful positive use of that platform, where it's been so debased by so many. There are still some ways to make use of our ability to connect with people that we wouldn't have had without social media.

Jon Pfeiffer:

I'm going to shift gears a little bit, stay on social media, but you raised $80.3 million from 800,000 people during that campaign, no PAC money, average donation $44, and I saw the most unique way to ask for a contribution when you were at a gas station. You were filling up, and the gas pump read $46 and some odd sense, and you said, match my gas money.

Beto O'Rourke:

Absolutely. Do you know what? What's nuts, Jon, is that people would do it. We would livestream. We'd have the camera on the gas pump meter and we would run a contest. If you can guess what it costs to fill up the tank in our Dodge Grand Caravan, then you get a t-shirt, or whatever. Folks would guess, and then when it got to the number, $46.71, we'd ask you to make that contribution. We'd do it when we were at Whataburger. I ordered a number two without tomatoes, Cynthia got a chicken sandwich, Chris got nuggets. What's our meal going to cost? Let's say it's $18.32. People would start donating $18.32 into the campaign, and ultimately $18.32 doesn't sound like a lot, but if thousands of people are donating that amount, which they did, you get to $80 million before too long.

We talked about the democratizing effect that social media platforms can have. I think that carries through to campaign finance. You don't have to rely on the very rich or the political action committees or the corporations to fund your campaign if you can reach enough people and give them an easy way to connect with your campaign through a donation of 18 bucks.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Then I've alluded to it. There was an HBO documentary after the campaign called Running with Beto. How did that documentary come about?

Beto O'Rourke:

The film maker, the principal film maker behind that, a really amazing guy named David Modigliani, I had played baseball with him. He's part of a sandlot Texas baseball team called the Texas Playboys in Austin. I was playing with a team here in El Paso called the Diablitos. We played against each other. He was a first baseman. I, believe it or not, got a hit and was able to get onto first base. We met each other on first base. We struck up a conversation later, a friendship, which he followed up on when I was running for Senate. He said, hey, would you meet me for breakfast next time you're in Austin? I did, and Jon, his proposal seemed so innocent. He said, hey, I want to make a documentary about this long shot bid you have for Senate. It wouldn't be intrusive. Maybe we'd interview you a couple of times, be in the car now and then.

It turned out to be incredibly intrusive, with a three or four person crew following us around. I was always miked. I resented the hell out of them for so much of the Senate race, just because you've got a million things crashing in on you at all times and the last thing you want is somebody with a camera in your face and a microphone on your lapel. However, because he's so talented and the team that he brought together is so gifted, they produced something that I think gives you a really crystal clear window into that campaign. It's really an impressive piece of work. For all my resentment and frustration, I'm so grateful that they put up with us and they did it and produced something that I think they should be really, really proud of.

Jon Pfeiffer:

It does provide a window. I talked to Amy a number of times, but I got to see her, I got to meet your three children, and I got to see what it's like for the family of the candidate, the behind the scenes, what they're going through. You get a feel for before your first debate with Ted Cruz, I saw you sitting there, you had headphones on. It was like sitting in a locker room before a big event. Then just the energy of when you would come out, which explains how you can continue to do this day after day during a campaign, because you could feed off the energy just watching it. It captured that. It's a long-winded preamble to what's it like to get that close? You could see the expectations, completely see the expectations. You got so close, and then it didn't happen. What did that feel like?

Beto O'Rourke:

Honestly, it was just crushing. It's crushing because you have brought together so many people in common purpose. So many people have come to support you, help you, knock on doors, donate 15 bucks. They've invested their hopes in you. They've allowed themselves to believe that the impossible is possible, and I just knew we could win that race. When we came up short, despite the extraordinary effort and the amazing team, and these beautiful people from across Texas, and many across the country who were part of that effort, frankly who comprised the campaign, to not be able to deliver that victory for them, and for Texas, and for the country because the reason we got into this and the reason we campaigned and the reason we fought so hard is because it is just so important. It's life or death for so many people that we want to serve and represent. As we're seeing right now in the state of Texas, it just crushed me. That was the immediate feeling.

Over time, I've realized that so much good has come out of that campaign. So many people who are part of that, who organized for the first time in 2017 and 2018, are out there organizing right now for different efforts and candidates. In some cases there, the candidates are the office holders now themselves. So many elections were won that year for State House, for District Judge, across the board in the state of Texas. It absolutely changed fundamentally our impression of what is possible in this state. I think that continues to flow through to this moment in 2021. With some perspective and some distance on it, I don't feel crushed. I feel extraordinarily lucky to have been part of that. Yeah, that was an amazing, amazing, amazing experience, and just so lucky to have been part of that.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Then in March of 2019, you announced a presidential bid. The one question I want to ask about that is, did your social media strategy change from Senate to president?

Beto O'Rourke:

It did. Whereas in early 2017, I had some great friends who were supportive of me and helping on an ad hoc basis, but many of those initial drives to the 254 counties were just on my own, or then with Cynthia, and then with Chris. Very often the folks with me in the van were volunteering. We just didn't have any money to pay anybody. That social media connection was just as direct and as raw and as real as me logging into Facebook, hitting live, and putting that thing in the mount on the windshield and just driving and talking and connecting with people. Because of social media in part, by the time I'm running for president, it's just a big dang operation, and the immediacy and the intimacy and the direct, raw, honest connection, it was pretty damn close to impossible to get that again. It's just a different beast, and it's also taking that on in the wake of a two year struggle across the state of Texas that just about killed us.

To try to pick up so soon after without ever having thought about running that race and put something together, again, with some perspective and some hindsight, that may have been too tough a hill for us to be able to climb. I think the social media dynamic had definitely changed. Everyone knew who I was at that point, where in the Senate race, nobody knew who I was. I got to introduce myself to anybody who cared to tune in for the first time back then. I just couldn't do that again. That was a different dynamic.

Jon Pfeiffer:

I'm going to ask you to put your prediction hat on. How do you think politicians will use social media in the future? Where do you think it's evolved?

Beto O'Rourke:

I can tell you what I hope happens. I hope that the free-wheeling, open, "small D" democratic platform that so many have made so much use of in so many positive ways, and we've gone through a number of examples today, I hope that that can be retained. At the same time that these platforms where the people are the product, where the profit is derived so often from the heat that comes from battle or conflict or division, the superficial nature of the information that we consume, I hope there is some thoughtful, effective regulation of that, and an acknowledgement that these are not public utilities. It's not the water company, it's not the electricity company. These are publishers who derive a profit from what they publish, and have set up algorithms and systems to drive the highest level of engagement and response, which very often flows from the things that deeply anger us, or the conspiracies that can be trafficked, that are sensational and I just cannot resist reading this story and then sharing it with my friends, because it's just crazy how this election was stolen or this other thing that happened.

They have a responsibility in terms of their deep and profound impact on the polity in America. The way a newspaper, a news station, a cable outlet, has regulation that reflects that responsibility, I think these social media platforms must have that as well. How you balance that, how you keep that freedom of speech, that ability to organize, the ability to see conflicting and dissenting points of view, which is so important to democracy, and yet not allow the ability for folks to organize sedition or the gunman who drove to El Paso and murdered 23 people here in 2019 to become radicalized on those platforms and share his manifesto. That's the challenge, and that's the art of those who are in power right now to legislate and regulate. Though it's hard, and though it won't be an easy balance to strike, I think it's very necessary if we're going to see more good than harm come from those platforms.

Jon Pfeiffer:

I'm going to completely change the tenor of this interview, because I want to ask you a couple of much lighter, personal questions. What's your guilty pleasure?

Beto O'Rourke:

I love music. We talked about this at the beginning. It shouldn't be a guilty pleasure, and I feel guilt describing it as a guilty pleasure, but it's the way it feels to me, because there's just always so much going on. I'm teaching two classes right now. We're organizing with our group, Powered by People. Previously, I was a member of Congress and a state-wide candidate. To take a half hour and put on Bob Dylan's Blood on the Tracks, and just listen to it with my eyes closed and those stories that he's telling and those characters that he's describing, to let them come to life and take me out of this world and into that world, or give me a deeper understanding of the world I'm already in, I love that. There few things I love as much, that I do as little as listening to music. That, I'd say, is a pleasure that I'd love to spend more time pursuing.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Have you ever been starstruck?

Beto O'Rourke:

Oh, yeah. I mean, being in politics and working in DC for six years as a member of Congress, to meet folks that have always been heroes, and from a distance just seemed super human, and to be in their company and to be their colleague. John Lewis is probably the most powerful example that I can think of. I remember being a freshman member of Congress and just too scared to talk to him. I mean, who the hell gets to talk to John Lewis? Then bumping into him as I'm going to cast my vote one day, and he's coming back up from the voting machine that members of Congress use. We kind of bump into each other. Then he's just the kindest, most caring person, wants to know who I am, what my story is, why I ran for Congress, what I plan to do while I'm there. Took a genuine interest in me, and not because of me. He does that to everyone because he was just such a good human being. Yeah, I was starstruck. Jon, I couldn't get the words out of my mouth. I felt that way the first conversation I had with him, I felt that way the 20th conversation I had with him. Just one of the all time heroes that this planet has produced, and very lucky to be in his company.

Jon Pfeiffer:

What advice, and we're on the downhill side here, what advice would you give to somebody who wants to get into politics?

Beto O'Rourke:

It can seem like such an exclusive thing, only the wealthy or the well-connected or the already powerful can get involved, either as a candidate or as somebody who works with a candidate or a campaign, only those who've devoted their lives to politics and understand the intricacies and the ins and outs get to play this game. None of that's true, but I can completely identify with the feeling of who am I, given my limited experience or background or connections or whatever. Who am I to get involved in this, stand for office?

What you find when you do that, when you run for that city council position, or when you knock on the door of that member of Congress and say, hey, I'd love to work for you. What you encounter when you connect with a cause or a non-profit that's seeking to affect public policy, is that you are needed. There's no secret handshake or special sauce to the deal. Everyone is able to add value to any organization, and really what I think one of the things we really suffer from in our democracy and in our form of government is not enough people getting out there, whether it's Congress or state legislature or any representative body, it rarely looks like the people it purports to represent. It rarely has that wealth of diversity of experience or background or expertise that you would want. There'll never be a perfect opportunity, a hand-delivered invitation, the right moment to do this. If you feel it, get in and give it your all, and I guarantee in almost every case it's rewarding, even if you do not prevail in whatever the task at hand happened to be.

Jon Pfeiffer:

What's ahead for you? You alluded to it, you're teaching two classes. I read where you're writing a book. There's speculation that you're going to run for governor. What is ahead? It's just you and me now. The audience is going to turn off when we get to this. You can announce your run for governor right here.

Beto O'Rourke:

You mentioned the things that I'm doing and I'm focused on right now. I think that's more than enough for any person, and also fortunate beyond what I could have ever imagined doing. I'm going to continue to focus on this work and continue to be fulfilled by it. If there is a role that I can play politically beyond what I'm doing right now, and I don't know that there is, that's something that I'll look at and think through, talk to Amy about, listen to folks that I respect and come to a decision on. I've got no plans to do anything else, not actively thinking through anything else, just really trying to enjoy being alive and the extraordinary fortune that I have, Jon, in being in El Paso consistently for the first time in nearly a decade, getting to be part of my kids' lives and be here with Amy and be in the city that I love, that absolutely defines me and is the source of whatever strength that I take from being alive. Yeah, I don't know what's next. I don't even know that I should be thinking about that. I've got so much that's so good right now. Yeah, I'm in a good place.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Second to last question. If you had a magic wand and could wave it, what would you change about Washington politics?

Beto O'Rourke:

I would, if I had a magic wand, make America a true democracy. You have so many who, because of the color of their skin, their income, their country of national origin, the community in which they live, who effectively, functionally cannot participate in our politics. The efforts to disenfranchise voters in Texas, for example, where you've had hundreds of polling place closures, the most restrictive voter ID laws, no ability to register to vote online. You can do it in person at an elections administration office or happen upon a volunteer deputy registrar who's certified by that office. The racial gerrymandering that you see in this state, that has helped not only to keep people out of our democracy, but it's prevented us from truly reflecting the will of the citizenry.

When we fix that through same day and automatic voter registration, citizen commissions that draw the political boundaries for the members of Congress, instead of the members of Congress doing that themselves, when we restore section five of the Voting Rights Act so that no one can be disenfranchised for any reason, including their race or their ethnicity, when we break down the barriers to participation for those who want to run for office so that you don't have to rely on corporations and PACs and the wealthy. You can finance your campaign at an even, level playing field. Then, Jon, not only do we have a democracy that is truly representative, you then begin to have the political will exercised to ensure that everybody has healthcare, that we confront climate change before it's too late, that we pass comprehensive immigration reform, all these big challenges that, for some reason over the last two decades, we've made almost no progress on. Overcoming them becomes possible when you bring everybody. If I could do one thing, it would make America a true democracy. That, I think, fixes everything else.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Last question. Where can people find you on the internet?

Beto O'Rourke:

The best place is this organization that I've mentioned a few times over the course of our interview. It's called Powered by People. The website is poweredxpeople.org, so powered, the letter X, people dot O-R-G. That's where we organize for the voter registration work we do, the voter contact work we do, and right now these wellness check-ins that we're performing across the state of Texas for senior citizens who are without heat or water or transportation. I'm pretty active, depending on what's going on, on Twitter. There I'm just @betoorourke. Same handle on Instagram and I think on Facebook.

Jon Pfeiffer:

It is.

Beto O'Rourke:

Those are some places you can go and find what we're up to.

Jon Pfeiffer:

Well, I thank you very much.